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foreign

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[Music]

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Air Forces has announced that applying

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disc has been found and is now in the

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possession of the army

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game is rigged change the game games

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I occasionally think how quickly our

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differences worldwide would vanish if we

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were facing an alien threat from outside

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this work

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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this is Fade to Black with your host

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Jimmy Church on the game changer Radio

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Network

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[Music]

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foreign

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good evening everybody how you doing

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Fade to Black today is Wednesday May

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24th 2023 I'm your host Jimmy church and

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tonight Drew Beeson joins us we're going

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to be talking about well a variety of

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True Crime uh subjects but uh

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specifically DB Cooper the Zodiac Killer

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and the Yuba County five Drew has been

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exploring the unknown all of his life

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believe it or not he says he was

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inspired by Coast to Coast AM that's

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right Unsolved Mysteries and stuff like

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that of course we all were uh and his

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first book was about the the Zodiac

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Killer his next book uh D.B Cooper and

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his latest book is about the Yuba County

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five and their disappearance we're going

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to be talking about that first tonight

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and he was recently featured on an

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episode of the History Channel's

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History's Greatest Mysteries Drew

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beasonbooks.com is the link below on our

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website and throughout social media and

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I would like to welcome for the first

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time I'm I'm ready for this Drew Beeson

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Drew good evening young man how you

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doing doing well good evening Jimmy

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hello to you and all your fader knots

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out there yeah that's what I'm talking

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talking about right there hit it off

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okay so then let's just get the

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formalities out out of the way sure and

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let's do the First Time guest disclaimer

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Drew which is this it's just you and I

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sitting on my couch having a

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conversation as friends and where that

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conversation starts and starts where it

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ends and ends but we're gonna end as

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friends there you go accept it accepted

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accepted

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Drew it's it's great to have you on the

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show and uh before I ask the obvious uh

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radio host softball first question like

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how did you get into all of this

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um

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I promise you we will do that in a

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minute

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but I think uh even more fascinating

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with that

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is this nation and the world's

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fascination with True Crime True Crime

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docu-series miniseries movies podcast

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articles blogs it's all over the place

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isn't it it is a true crime world that

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we live in yeah it's huge and it's just

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blowing up on being but I come from a

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background like you uh you know

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paranormal Coast to Coast Art Bell uh

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you know things like that you know

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Unsolved Mysteries which cover True

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Crime and UFO stuff in fact my favorite

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episode of Unsolved Mystery was the

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Roswell

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show to meet one of The Producers on

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that a guy named Sam Lucchesi who wasn't

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a UFO believer until he did that show

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and set up everything it got to meet a

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lot of the people that were still alive

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when they shot it and became a total

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believer in the UFO thing so I come from

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that background and then you know what I

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like is classic American unsolved cases

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like DB Cooper and the Zodiac Killer

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because uh there's so much Mystique

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built around cases like that that's what

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kind of attracted me to him when I when

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I am killing time right oh I just I just

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said the True Crime

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when I'm killing time uh and and I'm in

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between stuff that I need to watch

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I go I go straight to television and and

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find a true crime docu-series it's it's

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always guaranteed and and I I am

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addicted to it I cannot stop watching it

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last night I'm not going to say what I

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was watching last night because I

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stopped after the first episode you know

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a second episode

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um it was about an actor that I like and

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and and I was getting a little disturbed

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by the whole thing I was like man I

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don't need this I'll stop watching them

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but I don't need anyway I got two it was

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two o'clock in the morning

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I just keep going do I keep going with

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this binge watching that's what I that's

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what true crime does you know um you you

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you you

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uh I I think you're I how do I I want to

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say this right we know it's a dark world

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right we know it's a dark World

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um but the True Crime stuff just shows

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us

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don't absolutely

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and um with um uh we were talking uh

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before the show uh the gift that keeps

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on giving

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it's the unsolved yes right that's the

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okay now now here's the softball

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um I know that uh the list of DB Cooper

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suspects is is long and not everybody

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can be right right there's only one yes

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only can be one only only could be one

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like the Highlander you know they're

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looking at me one right right

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um this is a yes or no answer we'll get

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to the real answer

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um in a few minutes

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do you know who DB Cooper was I feel

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like I know who the best candidate is

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but you know the disclaimer there is I

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can't put them on the plane well no one

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can put any of the Suspects on the plane

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or we wouldn't be talking about DB

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Cooper it would probably be solved if a

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suspect was on the plane but you know

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that's a that's a big disclaimer no one

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could put their guy on the plane it's

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still uh unfortunately a circumstantial

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case so it's very almost no physical

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evidence really to speak of yeah pretty

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incredible and um

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uh here's it was like here here's here's

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the deal

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it was like the perfect storm of

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screw-ups and mistakes and Technology

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like all in a row if anything could have

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gone wrong in that case it did

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um and the fact that this was over uh

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United States airspace and you can't

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track a plane and this was a Jet right

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this wasn't wow Boeing 727. yeah yeah

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it's not like we're talking about 1930

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here

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it's just it just throws this whole

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thing into a curve where we just don't

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have any answers anywhere do we

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no no we're still you know there's two

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Mysteries here one is uh you know a

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young boy found some with DB Cooper's

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money in 1980 on the uh Bank of beach

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Bank along the Columbia River car Tina

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bar and uh it's it's like two mysteries

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in one with DB Cooper one is how the

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money got there and the other is who was

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DB Cooper so it's it's two hotly

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contested things in one

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and and uh okay let's uh let's let's do

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the basics on DB Cooper I actually

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wanted to start with the Yuba County

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five okay you know what let's actually

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start with the Yuba County five okay and

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I'll tell you why we'll we'll end with a

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DB Cooper we'll put the Zodiac in the

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middle we'll start with the humanity

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well it's because it is one of the

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craziest stories uh that I think we have

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in in law enforcement

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um it's it's how it happened and uh you

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know you've got sort of a witness

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um uh there but this isn't one of those

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headline cases that everybody knows

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about and you know 100 books have been

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written

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um but it is it is a true mystery isn't

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it it's a major mystery and no one

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really had heard of it whatsoever until

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about five years ago some people started

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putting it on their YouTube channels

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that follow you know that cover

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mysteries of like the outlaw pass that

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happened in Russia in 1959 and there's

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some parallels between that this case

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and that one but it was really YouTube

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and and some some channels that had you

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know some pretty good following that

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people started finally hearing about

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this case and it was before you know

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five years ago no one had really heard

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of it whatsoever and there's still a lot

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of people that have and if you're not

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you know a regular person to YouTube you

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might not know it at all but it's it's a

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it's uh just mind-bending it is

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mind-bending and I like the diatlov pass

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uh comparison

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um and there are there's quite a few

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actually

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um I like that a lot so let's start with

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i I'm going to guess and say the

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majority of you know I'll pop it in the

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chat hold on hold on uh

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uh who I'm just gonna do this in real

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time I never I never

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participate in the chat during the show

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it's too distracting but in this case

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who has heard

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of the but I do show everybody how

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quickly I can type and

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without looking at my fingers enter okay

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who has heard of the Yuba County five

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um first let's start with Yuba City

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California where is it

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you know that's uh just about 45 minutes

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north of Sacramento the capital of

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California

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is the Yuba City area which is in Yuba

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County it's called the Yuba County five

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because uh these guys lived in the Yuba

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City area in little towns called

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Marysville mainly lived in Marysville in

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a town called Linda and another one

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called Olivehurst there's three little

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towns uh just bordering Yuba City

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California

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and this happened in

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1978. correct and uh we've got five kids

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involved five boys

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um let's let's go through that what

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happened that night what do we know uh I

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set up tonight is what I should say well

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the night started these guys were uh

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they were grown men but they were uh

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four of them were born intellectually

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disabled now four of them had varying

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degrees of that uh the outlier the group

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his name was Gary Mathias he was

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actually a schizophrenic who had been

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taking medication and you know he was

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pretty much under control but he was

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different because when he was on his

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medication he was you know fully

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functioning mentally uh but the other

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four were not but these guys all knew

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each other from a place called the

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gateway Gators which was a place that

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taught uh people with any kind of

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disability a trade and it was kind of a

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place for them to hang out and play

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sports and that's how they knew each

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other because they were all on the

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basketball team called the gateway

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Gators these guys love basketball they

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ate slept and drank basketball that's

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all all they wanted to do is play it and

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then watch their favorite team which was

275
00:11:41,949 --> 00:11:40,560
the UC Davis Aggies which is based in

276
00:11:45,410 --> 00:11:41,959
Sacramento not far from their Hometown

277
00:11:48,410 --> 00:11:45,420
so the night all started on February

278
00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:48,420
24th of 1978 and they were going to see

279
00:11:52,490 --> 00:11:50,820
their favorite team the UC Davis Aggies

280
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:52,500
play in a place called Chico California

281
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:54,959
and that's roughly from Yuba City about

282
00:12:00,590 --> 00:11:59,040
an hour roughly Northwest uh you know

283
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:00,600
not not totally Northwest but about an

284
00:12:06,110 --> 00:12:04,079
hour north so they filled up a guy named

285
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:06,120
Jack madrugo went by the nickname doc

286
00:12:11,449 --> 00:12:09,839
was driving his 1969 Mercury Montego

287
00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:11,459
that night and all the other guys piled

288
00:12:14,810 --> 00:12:13,380
in they topped off the car with gas and

289
00:12:17,090 --> 00:12:14,820
they headed up to Chico to watch their

290
00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:17,100
team play and their team won it was kind

291
00:12:21,290 --> 00:12:19,260
of a throwaway game you know because uh

292
00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:21,300
UC Davis was really good that year Chico

293
00:12:24,530 --> 00:12:22,740
State was kind of terrible but their

294
00:12:26,990 --> 00:12:24,540
team won it wasn't really well attended

295
00:12:28,610 --> 00:12:27,000
and they were real happy because you

296
00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:28,620
know they were good spirits or guys won

297
00:12:31,730 --> 00:12:30,060
and they got to see them so after the

298
00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:31,740
game they went to a place called Bear's

299
00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:34,200
Market and they got some snack for the

300
00:12:37,310 --> 00:12:35,700
little short hour drive home and they

301
00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:37,320
made the strip before it was no big deal

302
00:12:41,810 --> 00:12:40,200
and uh Jack madruga that was driving was

303
00:12:44,210 --> 00:12:41,820
a pretty seasoned driver he had been in

304
00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:44,220
the Army you know you know I think the

305
00:12:49,370 --> 00:12:46,860
four that were uh cognitively disabled

306
00:12:50,509 --> 00:12:49,380
uh madruga was probably the least so you

307
00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:50,519
know he was basically probably somebody

308
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:53,220
just to say was on the Spectrum but he

309
00:12:57,470 --> 00:12:54,720
did have a driver's license and he was a

310
00:12:59,210 --> 00:12:57,480
very competent driver so they get their

311
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:59,220
snacks they get in the car for that hour

312
00:13:03,949 --> 00:13:00,959
drive home and that's the last time

313
00:13:05,329 --> 00:13:03,959
anyone ever saw them alive other than a

314
00:13:06,889 --> 00:13:05,339
supposed witness it will come up later

315
00:13:09,530 --> 00:13:06,899
that was really the last time they were

316
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:09,540
ever heard of so the next morning they

317
00:13:13,850 --> 00:13:10,980
were supposed to meet up at a local

318
00:13:15,769 --> 00:13:13,860
store and go play In a Special Olympics

319
00:13:16,910 --> 00:13:15,779
basketball game and they all five of

320
00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:16,920
them been really looking forward to

321
00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:18,600
playing in the Special Olympics game uh

322
00:13:21,889 --> 00:13:20,760
you know it was the the tournament the

323
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,899
biggest Tournament of the year for that

324
00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:23,519
they were going to win a trip to LA and

325
00:13:28,009 --> 00:13:25,320
go see Sally Struthers it was a big star

326
00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:28,019
back then and uh

327
00:13:31,129 --> 00:13:29,820
so they all told their mothers don't let

328
00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:31,139
me oversleep they had their basketball

329
00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:33,660
uniforms laid out so they had every

330
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:36,180
intention of coming back home and by the

331
00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:37,680
way all five of these guys still lived

332
00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:39,060
at home I mean they were men but they

333
00:13:43,190 --> 00:13:40,740
were literally like men and boys bodies

334
00:13:44,449 --> 00:13:43,200
in a lot of ways but uh they could they

335
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:44,459
could take care of themselves you know

336
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:45,300
some of them could take care of

337
00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:46,320
themselves and when they were a group

338
00:13:49,310 --> 00:13:48,060
they were really tight-knit and didn't

339
00:13:50,449 --> 00:13:49,320
have much trouble because they were very

340
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,459
athletic

341
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,800
so uh you know two three in the morning

342
00:13:55,850 --> 00:13:54,480
rolls around one of their mothers calls

343
00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:55,860
another mother and they're like hey have

344
00:13:58,670 --> 00:13:57,180
you seen the boys you know they should

345
00:14:00,050 --> 00:13:58,680
have been home about midnight or you

346
00:14:02,810 --> 00:14:00,060
know no later than midnight where are

347
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:02,820
they and then uh Panic starts kicking in

348
00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:04,380
about six a.m and then when nobody

349
00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:06,120
showed up to go drive to that Special

350
00:14:09,889 --> 00:14:08,519
Olympics game uh everybody knew there

351
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:09,899
was something wrong these guys are

352
00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:12,480
missing then the police get involved and

353
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,740
they start calling the different

354
00:14:19,129 --> 00:14:16,079
jurisdictions and and the search is on

355
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:19,139
and it was later that Monday they went

356
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:20,639
missing on a Friday night and of course

357
00:14:24,829 --> 00:14:22,560
the police got involved on Saturday and

358
00:14:25,870 --> 00:14:24,839
they put out all the noses and a police

359
00:14:29,210 --> 00:14:25,880
officer

360
00:14:32,269 --> 00:14:29,220
found Jack madruga's 1969 Mercury

361
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:32,279
Montego found way off course for them it

362
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:34,880
was about over two hours off course

363
00:14:39,790 --> 00:14:37,200
let me stop you right there for

364
00:14:43,009 --> 00:14:39,800
everybody we're talking about February

365
00:14:46,490 --> 00:14:43,019
in north central California so it's

366
00:14:48,769 --> 00:14:46,500
winter it's snowy it's cold

367
00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:48,779
um it's why the diatloaf pass kind of

368
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:52,980
thing uh play here here but this is this

369
00:14:56,930 --> 00:14:54,959
isn't walking weather this you know

370
00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:56,940
don't picture Southern California palm

371
00:15:03,530 --> 00:14:59,940
trees uh no this is north central

372
00:15:05,329 --> 00:15:03,540
California uh almost two miles north of

373
00:15:07,430 --> 00:15:05,339
Sacramento which is already freezing

374
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:07,440
cold oh yeah they're they're yeah

375
00:15:12,650 --> 00:15:10,560
freezing and so they they find they they

376
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:12,660
find the car in a snow drift right they

377
00:15:16,910 --> 00:15:15,300
find the car in a snow drift

378
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:16,920
um past the town called Oroville

379
00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:19,199
California way off course they found him

380
00:15:23,930 --> 00:15:21,300
at era a place called the Rogers Cow

381
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:23,940
Camp and it's an elevation around 5000

382
00:15:27,949 --> 00:15:25,980
feet up in the Plumas National Forest so

383
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:27,959
uh they went they that night they went

384
00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:29,279
to the game in Chico they were all

385
00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:30,540
wearing street clothes because it wasn't

386
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:32,339
going to get too cold you know what they

387
00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:33,839
were doing or they didn't plan to go up

388
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:36,180
into the mountains obviously wasn't what

389
00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:37,440
they were planning on doing but they

390
00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:39,240
were about an elevation of 5 000 feet

391
00:15:44,569 --> 00:15:42,180
wearing street clothes the car was found

392
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,579
roughly kind of stuck in a snow bank but

393
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:46,560
it could have been pushed out by five

394
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:48,300
athletic Guys these guys were like

395
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:49,920
really in shape because all they did was

396
00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:52,800
play sports and uh the car had a quarter

397
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:54,600
of a tank of gas in it it was fully

398
00:16:00,350 --> 00:15:56,399
functional because it would it later got

399
00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:00,360
towed back to uh Oroville California and

400
00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:02,220
um they're no sign of them anywhere not

401
00:16:06,889 --> 00:16:04,620
one sign of them let me let me jump in

402
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:06,899
one more I'm sorry to interrupt Drew but

403
00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:09,060
that was one of the more interesting

404
00:16:14,769 --> 00:16:10,740
comments at the beginning of this case

405
00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:14,779
from the police was that car was running

406
00:16:20,389 --> 00:16:18,300
Carr was sitting in snow but uh my my

407
00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:20,399
mom could have pushed it out right those

408
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:21,980
kind of comments

409
00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:24,720
yeah that the car had got there was no

410
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:27,180
real issues with the car it's just that

411
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,480
we found it in a strange spot right yeah

412
00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:32,399
they hot wired they hot wired it to

413
00:16:35,329 --> 00:16:33,420
start it because they didn't have the

414
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:35,339
keys they hot wired the car like the old

415
00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:37,380
school with the two wires literally and

416
00:16:41,090 --> 00:16:38,820
it started up immediately on the first

417
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:41,100
try right right right right what

418
00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:42,959
happened to the quarter of a tank

419
00:16:46,670 --> 00:16:45,180
yeah really strange you know there was

420
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:46,680
nothing wrong with the car the driver's

421
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:48,360
side window was rolled all the way down

422
00:16:52,730 --> 00:16:51,120
which is very mysterious because uh Jack

423
00:16:54,889 --> 00:16:52,740
madruga that drove that car it was his

424
00:16:56,749 --> 00:16:54,899
baby I mean he would not drive it down a

425
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:56,759
bumpy road because he was worried it

426
00:17:00,590 --> 00:16:58,560
would hurt the underbody of the car and

427
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,600
they later found out that when they

428
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:02,160
towed it back that the underbody the car

429
00:17:06,590 --> 00:17:04,079
was still in perfect condition which is

430
00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:06,600
unheard of going up that Oroville Quincy

431
00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:08,040
Highway that deep into the Plumas

432
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:09,480
National Forest because it's a heavily

433
00:17:15,289 --> 00:17:12,000
rutted Road it was February super cold

434
00:17:18,049 --> 00:17:15,299
there's like muddy snow you know melting

435
00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:18,059
and freezing again and uh they just

436
00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:20,339
thought that was really strange but uh

437
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:22,500
they find the car there's wrappers in

438
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:24,000
there from their from their snacks and

439
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:25,980
everything and there's not one sign of

440
00:17:31,490 --> 00:17:27,919
these guys anywhere so the search is on

441
00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:31,500
immediately I they're they're uh dogs up

442
00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:34,140
there there's people searching on foot a

443
00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:35,880
really bad blizzard comes in again that

444
00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:37,740
following I think Tuesday so this place

445
00:17:42,110 --> 00:17:39,900
is just getting inundated in snow so it

446
00:17:45,169 --> 00:17:42,120
makes the the search form really really

447
00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:45,179
difficult so so absolutely not a hair

448
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:48,840
these guys turn up in in weeks

449
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:54,600
and then uh there was a a camp a camp

450
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:56,400
I'm going to call it a campsite there

451
00:18:04,070 --> 00:17:57,840
was a location

452
00:18:07,130 --> 00:18:04,080
uh nearby uh that hikers would use right

453
00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:07,140
um and they spent some time there

454
00:18:12,110 --> 00:18:09,299
no where they eventually found one of

455
00:18:14,029 --> 00:18:12,120
them I mean this is after uh literally

456
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:14,039
they didn't find any sign of these guys

457
00:18:18,409 --> 00:18:15,240
until

458
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:18,419
um early June right uh no sign they

459
00:18:21,710 --> 00:18:19,860
finally get the first break in the case

460
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,720
and they found one of them which was Ted

461
00:18:25,789 --> 00:18:23,280
weary he was the oldest he was 32 years

462
00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:25,799
old found him in a forest service cabin

463
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:27,900
I think it's called the Great Basin Fire

464
00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:29,280
camp

465
00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:30,660
um right outside a place called The

466
00:18:34,430 --> 00:18:32,940
Daniel zinc Campground and uh there was

467
00:18:36,650 --> 00:18:34,440
some motorcyclists just happening to go

468
00:18:39,049 --> 00:18:36,660
through the area uh the snow starting to

469
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:39,059
melt now because it's early June and

470
00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:41,280
these guys on uh pull into this this

471
00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:43,260
this this uh Forest Service trailer

472
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,000
compound there's actually two trailers

473
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:47,039
that face each other and with a common

474
00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:49,440
deck and one of the motorcycles gets off

475
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:51,000
and pulls off his helmet and he's almost

476
00:18:55,130 --> 00:18:53,820
knocked over by this putrid smell and

477
00:18:57,289 --> 00:18:55,140
he's thinking there's got to be a dead

478
00:18:59,810 --> 00:18:57,299
animal nearby and he notices the one

479
00:19:01,549 --> 00:18:59,820
trailer and he walks up to the door and

480
00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:01,559
he's kind of surprised to see that it's

481
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:04,020
unlocked he walks in the trailer and he

482
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:06,960
finds uh Ted Weir who's deceased laying

483
00:19:10,730 --> 00:19:09,120
on a bed in the trailer face up with

484
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:10,740
eight blankets pulled up to his neck

485
00:19:13,010 --> 00:19:12,480
perfectly

486
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:13,020
um

487
00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:15,120
and you know that's the first uh you

488
00:19:18,110 --> 00:19:16,500
know find of one of the members of the

489
00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:18,120
Yuba County five nobody else was found

490
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,280
in the trailer other than Ted Weir in

491
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:22,559
early June and that's where the mystery

492
00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:24,480
really starts it really begins on

493
00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:26,520
finding Ted's body because in the

494
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:29,100
following days they did find the remains

495
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:31,740
of three others they never found the

496
00:19:35,570 --> 00:19:33,120
remains of Gary Matthias he's still

497
00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:35,580
missing to this day uh some surmise he

498
00:19:38,930 --> 00:19:36,840
just got further away from the trailer

499
00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:38,940
but they did find the remains of three

500
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:42,780
of the other boys uh Bill Sterling uh

501
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:45,840
Jackie Hewitt and uh and obviously Jack

502
00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:47,520
madruga the driver of the car they found

503
00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:49,380
Jack madruga's remains they've been

504
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:51,960
scattered from animal predation he was

505
00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:53,760
clutching his watch his right arm was

506
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:55,740
was already detached and missing and

507
00:19:58,730 --> 00:19:57,120
carried off by analysts when he was

508
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:58,740
clutching his wrist watch in his left

509
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:06,289
in his pocket to the Montego uh which

510
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:07,919
which they found interesting but all the

511
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:10,500
remains were covered very sad uh some of

512
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:11,700
the parents of the boys were up there

513
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:13,440
when they found the remains like uh

514
00:20:18,049 --> 00:20:16,320
check Hewitt senior found his body and

515
00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:18,059
he and he found his coat literally and

516
00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:19,140
they were trying to warn the parents

517
00:20:21,890 --> 00:20:20,160
don't be up here we know we're gonna

518
00:20:24,049 --> 00:20:21,900
find him it's going to be very traumatic

519
00:20:26,029 --> 00:20:24,059
for you and Jack Hewitt senior picked up

520
00:20:28,669 --> 00:20:26,039
a code and is literally his son's

521
00:20:30,529 --> 00:20:28,679
tailbone fell out of the coat uh when he

522
00:20:32,810 --> 00:20:30,539
found that so it's very horrible and

523
00:20:35,210 --> 00:20:32,820
tragic but uh so four of them are now

524
00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:35,220
found one of them uh not found in the

525
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:37,620
state which is Carrie Mathias now let's

526
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:39,240
uh let's start to piece this together

527
00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:42,000
somewhat was there any evidence that the

528
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:44,280
forest service campsite which is the

529
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,500
site I was referring to earlier by the

530
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:48,480
way I think I called them boys I meant

531
00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:50,880
to say young men uh earlier they went by

532
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:52,740
the boys they literally went they were

533
00:21:02,210 --> 00:20:58,610
um uh was there any evidence back at the

534
00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:02,220
campsite that uh because you would think

535
00:21:07,610 --> 00:21:03,900
a forest service campsite would have

536
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:07,620
some resources there uh a way to maybe

537
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:10,080
build a fire or you know what a book of

538
00:21:17,930 --> 00:21:14,640
matches maybe some food uh resources uh

539
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:17,940
was any of that there for them and if it

540
00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:20,400
was was any of it utilized did they

541
00:21:24,529 --> 00:21:21,960
spend any time there

542
00:21:27,710 --> 00:21:24,539
they they did we don't know you know

543
00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:27,720
it's still uh anyone's guess is as a

544
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:29,340
who'd made it to the trailer uh we know

545
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:30,720
Ted made it there because his body was

546
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:32,400
found there but uh and we think that

547
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:34,799
Gary Matthias made it there because his

548
00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:36,320
tennis shoes were found in the trailer

549
00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:39,000
they think that he swapped shoes with

550
00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:41,220
with Ted Weir who whose feet had gained

551
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,840
green on it he was missing toes from the

552
00:21:46,490 --> 00:21:44,400
frostbite and they think Gary put on

553
00:21:48,890 --> 00:21:46,500
Ted's you know sturdier leather shoes

554
00:21:50,450 --> 00:21:48,900
and at some point headed out uh trying

555
00:21:52,190 --> 00:21:50,460
to go get help so they did find Gary

556
00:21:54,529 --> 00:21:52,200
matthias's shoes so he you know think

557
00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:54,539
that uh almost certain Gary Mathias was

558
00:21:58,130 --> 00:21:55,860
there as well as Ted Weir we don't know

559
00:22:00,350 --> 00:21:58,140
if Jackie Hewitt made it we think that

560
00:22:02,210 --> 00:22:00,360
uh Bill Sterling and Jack madruga

561
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:02,220
probably perish from hypothermia before

562
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:03,840
getting there but we don't know for sure

563
00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:05,460
I mean they took fingerprints but they

564
00:22:08,750 --> 00:22:07,140
were nothing ever came of it we don't

565
00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:08,760
know there's no

566
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:10,740
definitive answer of who made it to the

567
00:22:15,169 --> 00:22:12,720
trailer or not but you talk about food

568
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,179
it this Forest Service trailer was well

569
00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:17,520
stocked and it was only used uh you know

570
00:22:21,649 --> 00:22:20,220
it wasn't manned you know it's only man

571
00:22:24,049 --> 00:22:21,659
when they needed it for a particular

572
00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:24,059
forest fire and by the way this Forest

573
00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:25,980
Service trailer was uh you know as the

574
00:22:29,870 --> 00:22:28,200
crow flies it was only 5.7 miles from

575
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:29,880
where the car was abandoned but if you

576
00:22:33,890 --> 00:22:32,159
took the road around uh how you would

577
00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:33,900
kind of do naturally it'd be closer to

578
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,340
like 12 miles

579
00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:38,159
and one thing that happened was a snow

580
00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:40,020
cat went up the day before the boys went

581
00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:42,840
missing to that very trailer to uh get

582
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,340
the snow off the roof of there was

583
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:45,600
actually two that faced each other they

584
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:47,039
get this they got the snow off the roof

585
00:22:51,169 --> 00:22:49,200
so the roofs wouldn't collapse but it

586
00:22:52,669 --> 00:22:51,179
was fully stocked there was the one

587
00:22:55,730 --> 00:22:52,679
trailer they found Ted in and the one

588
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,740
next to it had enough C rations for all

589
00:23:00,049 --> 00:22:57,360
five of them to survive for an entire

590
00:23:03,470 --> 00:23:00,059
year they did find some Open Sea rations

591
00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:03,480
there but it was only 30 cans total and

592
00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:05,880
for even two grown guys like that

593
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:07,620
basketball players are only going to eat

594
00:23:12,289 --> 00:23:10,799
you know 30 C rations it's it's really

595
00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:12,299
strange there was matches there there

596
00:23:16,130 --> 00:23:14,520
was kindling paperback books there was

597
00:23:18,529 --> 00:23:16,140
no evidence that they ever started a

598
00:23:20,450 --> 00:23:18,539
fire which makes no sense at all then

599
00:23:21,710 --> 00:23:20,460
there was also propane that I don't even

600
00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:21,720
know if Gary could have figured that out

601
00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:23,220
but there was propane that if they just

602
00:23:27,610 --> 00:23:24,840
found the switch they would have had

603
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:27,620
perfect heat in that trailer

604
00:23:33,770 --> 00:23:31,919
everything is strange here it doesn't

605
00:23:36,909 --> 00:23:33,780
make any sense

606
00:23:42,770 --> 00:23:36,919
um okay so maybe

607
00:23:45,770 --> 00:23:42,780
uh a little bit of of of mental you know

608
00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:45,780
capacity as an adult wasn't there but

609
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:47,960
you can still figure stuff out right

610
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:52,320
absolutely especially uh Gary uh on his

611
00:23:56,090 --> 00:23:54,000
medication he was taking medication for

612
00:23:58,610 --> 00:23:56,100
schizophrenia but it something that if

613
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,620
you don't you'd have to be off of it for

614
00:24:02,210 --> 00:24:00,480
at least three or four weeks for it to

615
00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:02,220
really start you know for him to start

616
00:24:06,289 --> 00:24:04,380
bugging out so to speak and starting to

617
00:24:07,490 --> 00:24:06,299
succumb to a schizophrenia because it's

618
00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:07,500
something that builds up in its

619
00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:09,840
bloodstream so upon getting there he

620
00:24:14,210 --> 00:24:11,280
would have been the first to know how to

621
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,220
at least eat that food or more of it and

622
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:16,320
start a fire you know I don't think

623
00:24:19,310 --> 00:24:17,760
there was a heart or anything inside the

624
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,320
trailer but absolutely when you're

625
00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:21,600
freezing like that you would just you

626
00:24:25,970 --> 00:24:23,340
get to be your first instinct to go

627
00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:25,980
start a fire right outside just get some

628
00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:28,620
wood scraps paperback books and just

629
00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:30,120
light them and just you know just

630
00:24:33,770 --> 00:24:31,980
fighting to stay warm but they there's

631
00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:33,780
no evidence they ever started a fire at

632
00:24:39,289 --> 00:24:36,900
all why do you think let's get into some

633
00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:39,299
theories here

634
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:41,940
why do you think they left the car

635
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:45,000
I think they left a car under some form

636
00:24:51,049 --> 00:24:47,520
of duressed or direct threat because

637
00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:51,059
they literally fled up the mountain and

638
00:24:55,010 --> 00:24:53,280
that's that's just not normal even for

639
00:24:56,570 --> 00:24:55,020
you know for the guys being you know

640
00:24:58,490 --> 00:24:56,580
somewhat mentally impaired they would

641
00:25:00,770 --> 00:24:58,500
not do that it's just naturally you

642
00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:00,780
would just go downhill and they didn't

643
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:04,260
they fled up hill into the mountains uh

644
00:25:08,450 --> 00:25:06,000
wearing street clothes in a three to six

645
00:25:09,529 --> 00:25:08,460
foot snow drifts there's a man needs a

646
00:25:10,970 --> 00:25:09,539
bush I don't know how to pronounce that

647
00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:10,980
right but it's up there and it's really

648
00:25:16,430 --> 00:25:13,980
sticky bad stuff to be in and they

649
00:25:17,870 --> 00:25:16,440
literally fled I mean and the

650
00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:17,880
interesting thing is that they found

651
00:25:20,990 --> 00:25:19,140
when they found the car that the

652
00:25:22,610 --> 00:25:21,000
driver's side window was rolled down he

653
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:22,620
would have never left his car like that

654
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:24,480
I know his cousin that's driven that car

655
00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:26,580
he said man he babied that he would

656
00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:28,200
never leave that car with that window

657
00:25:32,090 --> 00:25:29,940
down so I think they encountered

658
00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:32,100
somebody there at Rogers Cow Camp and

659
00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:34,260
they threatened them somehow and maybe

660
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,580
got up there got them up there under

661
00:25:39,049 --> 00:25:37,440
some ruse and they literally fled up

662
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:39,059
that mountain you know that's kind of

663
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:41,279
another comparison to the outlaw pass

664
00:25:45,529 --> 00:25:43,380
because something thing huge happened

665
00:25:47,149 --> 00:25:45,539
immediately that caused the dll passed

666
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:47,159
people to cut their way out of the tent

667
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:48,960
well

668
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:51,840
um I think they refer to it yeah around

669
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:55,679
Buck Naked into trees yeah yeah and I

670
00:25:59,930 --> 00:25:57,120
think they call that an unknown

671
00:26:03,289 --> 00:25:59,940
compelling Force yeah and I know and

672
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:03,299
that's what happened that was the KGB uh

673
00:26:07,310 --> 00:26:05,220
that was their conclusion

674
00:26:10,250 --> 00:26:07,320
um and I'm I'm not saying that in jest

675
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,260
uh now there was a witness

676
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:13,200
um that was there

677
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:16,500
um and and and saw a few things going on

678
00:26:20,990 --> 00:26:18,480
around the car and I think they might

679
00:26:22,909 --> 00:26:21,000
have even had some communication uh what

680
00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:22,919
happened who was the witness

681
00:26:27,890 --> 00:26:25,980
his name was Joseph schones and he was

682
00:26:30,289 --> 00:26:27,900
he was a local from a place called Berry

683
00:26:32,930 --> 00:26:30,299
Creek which was just north of the town

684
00:26:36,169 --> 00:26:32,940
of Oroville California and probably a

685
00:26:37,789 --> 00:26:36,179
good you know 15 20 minute drive up to

686
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:37,799
the Rogers Cow Camp where the where the

687
00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:40,320
uh where the Montego was found and Jones

688
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:41,820
comes forward

689
00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:44,640
I think a week or so after uh it's first

690
00:26:48,289 --> 00:26:46,200
starting to to make the news in the

691
00:26:50,330 --> 00:26:48,299
newspaper that these guys are missing he

692
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,340
comes forward with a story and it's it

693
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:52,320
changed multiple times but the but the

694
00:26:58,130 --> 00:26:56,159
basics is that he was uh in his VW Bug

695
00:27:00,590 --> 00:26:58,140
he drove he drove a little VW Bug and he

696
00:27:02,510 --> 00:27:00,600
was heading up that mountain to go check

697
00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:02,520
the snow line for a ski weekend or

698
00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:04,500
something with his wife and daughter and

699
00:27:09,289 --> 00:27:06,600
his VW Bug got stuck in the snow near

700
00:27:10,970 --> 00:27:09,299
Rogers Cow Camp so he gets out of his VW

701
00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:10,980
Bug this is on the night the boys went

702
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:13,559
missing that Friday night and this was

703
00:27:17,450 --> 00:27:14,940
sometime around midnight so it's now

704
00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:17,460
going to be Saturday February 25th uh

705
00:27:23,450 --> 00:27:20,520
Jones gets out to push his VW out and he

706
00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:23,460
suffers a mild heart attack and uh he

707
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:25,200
you know he can't do anything more after

708
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:26,880
that so he gets back into his car for

709
00:27:29,870 --> 00:27:28,260
heat which is interesting because VW

710
00:27:31,669 --> 00:27:29,880
bugs don't really give off heat unless

711
00:27:33,769 --> 00:27:31,679
you're actually driving because it's air

712
00:27:36,769 --> 00:27:33,779
cooled it's another kind of hole in the

713
00:27:38,269 --> 00:27:36,779
story but he um at some point he falls

714
00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:38,279
asleep after this heart attack and then

715
00:27:43,310 --> 00:27:40,140
he sees headlights come up behind him

716
00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:43,320
and it wakes him up and he manages to

717
00:27:47,690 --> 00:27:45,480
get out of his car and uh he sees these

718
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:47,700
silhouettes of figures behind him and

719
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:49,260
he's like help me help me I've had a

720
00:27:52,669 --> 00:27:50,880
heart attack

721
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:52,679
um you know he's crying out for help and

722
00:27:56,690 --> 00:27:54,720
no one helps him and they and he just he

723
00:27:58,370 --> 00:27:56,700
thinks he saw a woman with a baby and a

724
00:28:00,230 --> 00:27:58,380
red truck or something and then all of a

725
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:00,240
sudden all the figures get back in the

726
00:28:04,669 --> 00:28:03,120
car and leave and then

727
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:04,679
um you know in one account he there's

728
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:06,000
another card that comes up behind him

729
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:07,919
but the official police report he pulls

730
00:28:12,529 --> 00:28:10,559
us down to just one siding so roughly

731
00:28:14,029 --> 00:28:12,539
about six in the morning he's he's still

732
00:28:15,769 --> 00:28:14,039
you know in and out of Consciousness

733
00:28:18,409 --> 00:28:15,779
from this heart attack he's throwing up

734
00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:18,419
outside his car uh going to the bathroom

735
00:28:21,769 --> 00:28:20,340
outside but at some point he knows he's

736
00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:21,779
got to get out of his car and go get

737
00:28:25,250 --> 00:28:22,860
help because it runs out of gas

738
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:25,260
somewhere you know early early morning

739
00:28:29,870 --> 00:28:28,559
so he walks down the mountain about five

740
00:28:32,390 --> 00:28:29,880
miles to a place called the mountain

741
00:28:33,769 --> 00:28:32,400
house which is a lodge and people are

742
00:28:35,630 --> 00:28:33,779
there at the mountain house and they

743
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,640
remembered that him coming in that

744
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:37,200
morning so that is true it's in the

745
00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:40,500
police files and he said uh my car got

746
00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:42,779
stuck up there and and he remembered

747
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,460
seeing the Montego he said he walked

748
00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:46,320
right by it and didn't think much of it

749
00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:47,700
he just thought somebody because up

750
00:28:51,230 --> 00:28:49,020
there they would just park cars and go

751
00:28:52,430 --> 00:28:51,240
cross-country skiing or whatnot but they

752
00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:52,440
were called him coming into the mountain

753
00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:54,360
house early that Saturday morning and he

754
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:56,100
made a comment to somebody working there

755
00:29:00,169 --> 00:28:57,600
he said I should have done this two

756
00:29:01,490 --> 00:29:00,179
years ago and two at least two people

757
00:29:03,710 --> 00:29:01,500
heard him make that comment and to this

758
00:29:06,649 --> 00:29:03,720
day we don't know what he meant uh but

759
00:29:09,890 --> 00:29:06,659
Joe schones was the town drunk of uh

760
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:09,900
Berry Creek and he was the guy went tell

761
00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:11,820
stories and if you called him out on his

762
00:29:15,409 --> 00:29:13,260
stories he would double down that kind

763
00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:15,419
of guy uh he was constantly getting his

764
00:29:19,250 --> 00:29:17,640
car stuck so that part's believable and

765
00:29:20,510 --> 00:29:19,260
he would get towed out or somebody would

766
00:29:21,889 --> 00:29:20,520
help him get his car unstuck and he

767
00:29:23,690 --> 00:29:21,899
wouldn't even thank him

768
00:29:25,490 --> 00:29:23,700
so after he goes back to the mountain

769
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:25,500
house he gets you know a couple gives

770
00:29:28,909 --> 00:29:27,120
him a ride back to his home at Berry

771
00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:28,919
Creek doesn't even thank him of course

772
00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:31,980
this is classic Joe Jones so uh so that

773
00:29:35,810 --> 00:29:33,480
was his story that he saw that group

774
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:35,820
that night so we don't know if he's

775
00:29:40,010 --> 00:29:38,100
making a part of the story or you just

776
00:29:42,830 --> 00:29:40,020
don't know because he's he's a known

777
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:42,840
liar and his credibility suffers greatly

778
00:29:47,389 --> 00:29:44,820
but he's really the only witness in this

779
00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:47,399
case didn't he have another version of

780
00:29:50,990 --> 00:29:49,380
the story too where he saw uh

781
00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:51,000
flashlights

782
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:53,580
yes yes that's the one where you the car

783
00:29:57,649 --> 00:29:55,919
comes up again and he sees uh figures

784
00:29:59,810 --> 00:29:57,659
get out again he sees flashlights

785
00:30:01,970 --> 00:29:59,820
beaming around him he gets out again

786
00:30:04,610 --> 00:30:01,980
help help I had a heart attack and then

787
00:30:06,889 --> 00:30:04,620
uh nobody comes to help him and he winds

788
00:30:09,169 --> 00:30:06,899
up he's angry gets back in his VW

789
00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:09,179
because the he still has gas in it still

790
00:30:13,789 --> 00:30:12,120
running supposedly for the Heat and uh

791
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:13,799
then later he makes his walk back

792
00:30:17,389 --> 00:30:16,020
downhill towards the mountain house and

793
00:30:18,769 --> 00:30:17,399
then he you know we're called seeing the

794
00:30:22,909 --> 00:30:18,779
Montego

795
00:30:25,669 --> 00:30:22,919
now uh what part of this as as you have

796
00:30:27,409 --> 00:30:25,679
uh looked at this case as far as Joe

797
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,419
Jones go

798
00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:29,520
um do you think that there is a

799
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:31,380
connection that there was a second car

800
00:30:38,990 --> 00:30:35,880
and and possibly that's what scared the

801
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,000
five uh you know the boys the five five

802
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:41,760
men to run up the hill uh away from

803
00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:44,399
their uh Montego

804
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:46,200
there's a lot of theories you know one

805
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:48,720
is it in shone's Own Story which changed

806
00:30:53,210 --> 00:30:50,940
quite a bit was that when he was driving

807
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,220
up the Orville Quincy Highway that night

808
00:30:56,330 --> 00:30:54,960
that there was a car behind him that was

809
00:30:57,950 --> 00:30:56,340
pushing him you know like he couldn't

810
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:57,960
get out of the way he didn't have enough

811
00:31:02,570 --> 00:31:00,240
room to turn the VW around because this

812
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:02,580
car was really on his bumper uh the

813
00:31:07,549 --> 00:31:06,000
whole way so some surmise that uh when

814
00:31:09,169 --> 00:31:07,559
they make it up to Rogers Cow Camp that

815
00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:09,179
Jones has the heart attack and the boy

816
00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:11,100
who saw that and got so spooked by it

817
00:31:15,289 --> 00:31:13,140
they just fled up the hill like a bunch

818
00:31:16,669 --> 00:31:15,299
of deer uh I don't think that would

819
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:16,679
happen I think they would help people I

820
00:31:21,409 --> 00:31:18,960
think Gary would have probably known the

821
00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:21,419
guy needed some form of medical help

822
00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:23,520
so I'm more of the opinion that someone

823
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:25,620
scared the hell out of them making them

824
00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:26,960
flee up that mountain like that

825
00:31:32,330 --> 00:31:30,360
including Gary Matthias who was a uh you

826
00:31:33,830 --> 00:31:32,340
know a bar room brawler been in the

827
00:31:37,310 --> 00:31:33,840
military you know the guy would stand

828
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:37,320
his ground it would take some for him to

829
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:39,120
fly up that mountain scared would take a

830
00:31:43,070 --> 00:31:41,039
lot more than a man having a heart

831
00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:43,080
attack for Gary Matthias he was a pretty

832
00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:45,840
tough dude now what about the Yuba

833
00:31:51,169 --> 00:31:47,940
counting five themselves how did they

834
00:31:53,630 --> 00:31:51,179
what's your theory on how they even

835
00:31:57,649 --> 00:31:53,640
ended up in that road you know so far

836
00:32:00,169 --> 00:31:57,659
away from where they were supposed to be

837
00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:00,179
you know I know that the the fact that

838
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:03,000
they simply got lost doesn't really wash

839
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:04,559
with people that know the case like I do

840
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:06,000
and some other guys that really research

841
00:32:09,769 --> 00:32:08,100
it well like Tony Doug Wright who's got

842
00:32:12,169 --> 00:32:09,779
a really comprehensive book coming out

843
00:32:14,090 --> 00:32:12,179
on it and we go over and over it but we

844
00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:14,100
think some somewhere they got

845
00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:16,440
intercepted either at Bear's Market or

846
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,260
on the ride home and under a ruse or

847
00:32:23,210 --> 00:32:21,120
they got diverted somehow

848
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:23,220
uh on on

849
00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:25,260
a promise of something or helping

850
00:32:29,330 --> 00:32:27,539
somebody they lured them up to the

851
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:29,340
Rogers Cow Camp because this isn't just

852
00:32:34,730 --> 00:32:31,320
making one wrong turn you got to go over

853
00:32:36,529 --> 00:32:34,740
this long bridge into uh the town of

854
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:36,539
Oroville like they would have they would

855
00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:38,100
have absolutely known to turn around and

856
00:32:41,090 --> 00:32:39,480
there was plenty of places to turn

857
00:32:42,769 --> 00:32:41,100
around you know the minimum of turned

858
00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:42,779
around in Oroville and ask for

859
00:32:47,210 --> 00:32:45,480
directions and you know they had in his

860
00:32:48,769 --> 00:32:47,220
uh his glove box and Jack manuka's blood

861
00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:48,779
car service maps of all of California

862
00:32:52,850 --> 00:32:51,480
you know that area the whole state the

863
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:52,860
maps weren't even touched they didn't

864
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,039
even take them out and looked at them so

865
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:57,360
some something intercepted them

866
00:33:01,730 --> 00:33:00,240
somewhere and that's how they wound up

867
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:01,740
there it wasn't simply they missed a

868
00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:03,600
turn because they were you know

869
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:05,520
semi-retarded is a lot of they would say

870
00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:06,720
in the newspapers of the day because

871
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:08,220
that was unfortunately the term that was

872
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:10,320
used it's just not the case these guys

873
00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:12,000
knew how to turn around I mean that's

874
00:33:15,529 --> 00:33:14,100
not what happened uh that that can be

875
00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:15,539
taken off the table

876
00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:18,299
well the I I'll tell you one thing that

877
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:20,700
should be on the table in this case is

878
00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:23,880
that if you're if you're walking uh five

879
00:33:28,370 --> 00:33:26,460
miles from your car and that's if you

880
00:33:32,450 --> 00:33:28,380
know in a straight line to this camp

881
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:32,460
through the snow at night and you arrive

882
00:33:40,370 --> 00:33:37,200
at a forest Service uh campsite uh with

883
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:40,380
trailers that's where you stay that's

884
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:44,880
Refuge right and the nothing else makes

885
00:33:50,029 --> 00:33:47,519
any sense here I don't care if you're

886
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:50,039
two years old if you're 90 years old it

887
00:33:54,769 --> 00:33:51,360
doesn't matter you're going to stay

888
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:54,779
where it's warm and safe that's it it

889
00:33:59,090 --> 00:33:56,640
did anything else just doesn't make any

890
00:34:00,769 --> 00:33:59,100
sense nothing makes sense nothing in

891
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:00,779
this case makes sense it's like the the

892
00:34:05,149 --> 00:34:02,640
undershare of Jack Bishop said this case

893
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:05,159
is bizarre as hell which is a famous

894
00:34:09,169 --> 00:34:07,860
quote from it none of it adds up uh

895
00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:09,179
there's there's a lot of popular

896
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:11,580
theories uh I can tell you one that's

897
00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:13,500
very popular among some of the families

898
00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:14,940
which I know a lot of family members of

899
00:34:18,829 --> 00:34:17,460
course uh is there's a guy that we just

900
00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:18,839
call he's still alive we call him the

901
00:34:22,849 --> 00:34:20,339
town bully and he was a guy that lived

902
00:34:24,589 --> 00:34:22,859
in the Yuba City area and he's he's a

903
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:24,599
bad guy you know he's just he had a

904
00:34:28,669 --> 00:34:26,879
really checkered past but in prison a

905
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:28,679
lot of bad guys back then but a lot lot

906
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:30,240
of them believed that this guy was

907
00:34:36,409 --> 00:34:32,700
responsible and that the story was is

908
00:34:37,849 --> 00:34:36,419
that after the game in Chico they these

909
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:37,859
guys somehow intercepted them maybe they

910
00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:39,119
were the game we don't know but they

911
00:34:42,829 --> 00:34:40,740
they found them near the Oroville Bridge

912
00:34:44,089 --> 00:34:42,839
or at least drove them there followed

913
00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:44,099
them in their car made him go to the

914
00:34:49,250 --> 00:34:46,080
Oroville bridge where Gary Matthias is

915
00:34:51,530 --> 00:34:49,260
thrown over the Oroville Bridge uh

916
00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:51,540
you know thus killing them and then the

917
00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:54,060
other four are either followed or

918
00:34:57,050 --> 00:34:55,560
someone gets in Jack madruga's car and

919
00:34:59,210 --> 00:34:57,060
drives them all the way up to the Rogers

920
00:35:00,650 --> 00:34:59,220
Cow Camp the only thing going against

921
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,660
that of course is they found Gary

922
00:35:04,010 --> 00:35:02,160
matthias's tennis shoes in the trailer

923
00:35:06,290 --> 00:35:04,020
but if you could explain that one little

924
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:06,300
thing how the shoes got there maybe Gary

925
00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:07,680
took them off on the right home and one

926
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:10,740
of the boys just being sweet natured

927
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:12,240
just didn't really understand Gary

928
00:35:16,010 --> 00:35:13,920
wasn't coming back and took those shoes

929
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:16,020
if there's a simple explanation for that

930
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:17,880
that theory holds a lot of water because

931
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:19,680
I could tell you it was so prevalent in

932
00:35:24,589 --> 00:35:22,320
the Yuba City area among family members

933
00:35:27,470 --> 00:35:24,599
and that stories never changed where

934
00:35:29,930 --> 00:35:27,480
Mathias thrown over the the bridge and

935
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:29,940
then the other four are literally ran up

936
00:35:33,650 --> 00:35:32,460
or ran up there I guess to die you know

937
00:35:36,050 --> 00:35:33,660
they didn't say they didn't have the

938
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:36,060
heart to kill all all of them so four of

939
00:35:39,050 --> 00:35:37,740
them drove it up there threatened it

940
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:39,060
threatened somehow maybe a gun Point

941
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:40,440
fire it in the air and then they all

942
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:43,380
four go scrambling up the mountain and

943
00:35:46,970 --> 00:35:45,060
that would explain why more food wasn't

944
00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:46,980
consumed because Gary would have you

945
00:35:50,030 --> 00:35:48,900
know he would have eaten more food you

946
00:35:51,770 --> 00:35:50,040
know the other four might have thought

947
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:51,780
it was stealing because they were you

948
00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:53,280
know they were like children and you

949
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:54,660
know they're very sweet natured you know

950
00:35:57,530 --> 00:35:55,920
because of their disabilities so they

951
00:35:59,810 --> 00:35:57,540
might have felt that taking those C

952
00:36:01,010 --> 00:35:59,820
rashes was stealing but Gary Matthias

953
00:36:03,650 --> 00:36:01,020
would not have

954
00:36:05,329 --> 00:36:03,660
so like that is a prevailing theory in

955
00:36:05,930 --> 00:36:05,339
this case

956
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:05,940
um

957
00:36:12,050 --> 00:36:08,640
that never goes away it feels more

958
00:36:13,849 --> 00:36:12,060
Supernatural to me and and that's on the

959
00:36:16,849 --> 00:36:13,859
table Yeah Yeah it feels more

960
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:16,859
Supernatural and I'll tell you why uh

961
00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:19,920
what these guys had hundreds of dollars

962
00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:22,500
on each of them were they no they didn't

963
00:36:28,430 --> 00:36:25,320
have much cash exactly the car wasn't

964
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:28,440
stolen the car was still there

965
00:36:35,089 --> 00:36:31,440
um so it wasn't theft

966
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:35,099
um it it's you know it's I'm not so sure

967
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:37,560
and the car keys were still in the pot I

968
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:40,260
I don't know I think something spooked

969
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:40,980
them

970
00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:43,920
something spooked him bad and I mean if

971
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:46,680
it's paranormal or UFO related that's

972
00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:48,480
the place for it I mean all kind of

973
00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:49,740
weird stuff happens up in those

974
00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:51,300
mountains I mean there's people living

975
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:53,460
off the grid there's sightings of

976
00:36:57,710 --> 00:36:55,440
everything you can think of UFO

977
00:36:58,849 --> 00:36:57,720
Sasquatch you'd name it it was going on

978
00:37:01,130 --> 00:36:58,859
in those mountains up there in the

979
00:37:03,710 --> 00:37:01,140
Plumas it's it's you name it can go on

980
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:03,720
so it there there is I think the

981
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:05,760
Paranormal is definitely on the table

982
00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:07,560
with this case because none of it adds

983
00:37:13,310 --> 00:37:10,740
up yeah and uh you know you drive around

984
00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:13,320
the corner something's in the road you

985
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:16,020
freak out you you you know you drive off

986
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:17,880
the road your car is sort of stuck

987
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:20,300
whatever that was comes up to the now

988
00:37:25,250 --> 00:37:23,460
because the human side of this the

989
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:25,260
reason why I'm going there and I've

990
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:28,079
always thought that about this case is

991
00:37:32,210 --> 00:37:30,240
that the human element part of it the

992
00:37:35,329 --> 00:37:32,220
Criminal part of it it just doesn't add

993
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:35,339
up if the car was missing right their

994
00:37:41,210 --> 00:37:37,920
wallets are gone they're cash you know

995
00:37:43,970 --> 00:37:41,220
anything like that okay all right but if

996
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:43,980
none of that is there why would they go

997
00:37:49,609 --> 00:37:46,640
up the hill

998
00:37:51,950 --> 00:37:49,619
unless they were uh scared something

999
00:37:53,630 --> 00:37:51,960
something scary a compelling a

1000
00:37:56,089 --> 00:37:53,640
compelling force and it must have been

1001
00:37:58,970 --> 00:37:56,099
like I said Matthias was bought you know

1002
00:38:01,130 --> 00:37:58,980
brawler uh would pick a lot of fights

1003
00:38:02,450 --> 00:38:01,140
um you know he would probably not win a

1004
00:38:04,730 --> 00:38:02,460
fight against the town bully this guy

1005
00:38:06,530 --> 00:38:04,740
was just a really bad guy but uh but

1006
00:38:08,569 --> 00:38:06,540
otherwise Gary Matthias was not a

1007
00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:08,579
shrinking violet it's not it's not going

1008
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:10,920
to be just some you know just Joe Jones

1009
00:38:15,290 --> 00:38:12,480
being drunk and saying go up the hill

1010
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:15,300
boys or you know it was something pretty

1011
00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:17,760
compelling that would if if if you know

1012
00:38:20,569 --> 00:38:19,380
granted if Matthias was with them at

1013
00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:20,579
that point

1014
00:38:26,569 --> 00:38:23,220
now what about

1015
00:38:28,849 --> 00:38:26,579
um and then we'll move on but uh today

1016
00:38:30,890 --> 00:38:28,859
we always look at evidence collection

1017
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:30,900
and and DNA

1018
00:38:34,730 --> 00:38:32,940
you know the car was intact the trailer

1019
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:34,740
was intact we have a body in the trailer

1020
00:38:41,630 --> 00:38:37,920
under a blanket uh we have shoes we have

1021
00:38:44,690 --> 00:38:41,640
uh was there evidence collected on the

1022
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:44,700
site and is there any chance of of

1023
00:38:50,810 --> 00:38:48,900
looking at uh DNA for you know a you

1024
00:38:53,569 --> 00:38:50,820
know another CR you know some somebody

1025
00:38:57,230 --> 00:38:53,579
there that could have caused all of this

1026
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:57,240
was there evidence collected no there's

1027
00:39:00,410 --> 00:38:58,800
none that we know about there's nothing

1028
00:39:02,290 --> 00:39:00,420
collected they took some fingerprints

1029
00:39:05,329 --> 00:39:02,300
from the car in the trailer

1030
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:05,339
that uh never really nothing came of it

1031
00:39:10,010 --> 00:39:07,680
it was never even you know positively

1032
00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:10,020
say for 100 Gary was in the trailer I

1033
00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:11,460
mean all we really know this that Ted

1034
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:13,619
was because they found him uh the the

1035
00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:15,240
fingers prints in the car there was you

1036
00:39:18,829 --> 00:39:16,740
know they didn't find anything that was

1037
00:39:20,890 --> 00:39:18,839
to belonged to somebody else there's no

1038
00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:20,900
DNA there was no blood there's nothing

1039
00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:23,760
physically there's nothing left from the

1040
00:39:29,930 --> 00:39:25,800
car or the trailer still in evidence to

1041
00:39:30,970 --> 00:39:29,940
my to my knowledge at all and and if

1042
00:39:33,650 --> 00:39:30,980
um

1043
00:39:35,930 --> 00:39:33,660
if we have a missing fifth body that's

1044
00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:35,940
thrown off of a bridge and possibly into

1045
00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:39,180
a wash or into a river that would have

1046
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:42,180
been recovered or eventually found at at

1047
00:39:48,770 --> 00:39:44,640
some point and then the clothes but we

1048
00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:48,780
have a an actual missing body uh in this

1049
00:39:54,770 --> 00:39:52,020
case that is now 45 years old

1050
00:39:56,329 --> 00:39:54,780
yeah Gary has never been found some

1051
00:39:59,569 --> 00:39:56,339
people think he got to the trailer and

1052
00:40:01,250 --> 00:39:59,579
maybe headed out you know within a week

1053
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:01,260
or two maybe that's why not more food

1054
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:03,359
was consumed somebody was taking care of

1055
00:40:07,730 --> 00:40:05,760
Ted Weir though and Ted Weir had lived

1056
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:07,740
in that trailer they surmised by his

1057
00:40:12,770 --> 00:40:09,839
beard growth that he was in there from

1058
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:12,780
eight to ten weeks so somebody had to be

1059
00:40:17,390 --> 00:40:14,640
taking care of Ted somebody was pulling

1060
00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:17,400
those sheets up to him and and taking

1061
00:40:20,990 --> 00:40:19,260
some care of him to have made it for

1062
00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:21,000
that long and we don't know if that's

1063
00:40:25,609 --> 00:40:23,579
Gary Matthias or possibly Jackie Hewitt

1064
00:40:28,310 --> 00:40:25,619
who was the most affected of the five

1065
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,320
you know he was uh you know probably had

1066
00:40:31,609 --> 00:40:30,240
the lowest IQ but he wasn't you know as

1067
00:40:32,930 --> 00:40:31,619
bad office people made it seem he could

1068
00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:32,940
read and write some because you know I

1069
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,180
know his family members and uh you know

1070
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:38,400
they do say that Jackie was capable of

1071
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:41,280
taking care of Ted as well so we don't

1072
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:44,400
know if that was Gary or or Jackie but

1073
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,079
yes Gary Matthias has never been found

1074
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:48,000
some people think he just got further

1075
00:40:52,849 --> 00:40:50,880
out because Gary was a Survivor I mean

1076
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:52,859
this guy had gone to live with his

1077
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:55,260
grandmother up in in Portland and he

1078
00:41:00,410 --> 00:40:57,119
walked home all the way from Portland to

1079
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:00,420
Yuba City walked I mean what is that 600

1080
00:41:09,230 --> 00:41:08,150
yeah and that's just how the guy was I

1081
00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:09,240
mean it was part maybe part of his

1082
00:41:13,310 --> 00:41:11,579
mental illness that he was just he was a

1083
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:13,320
Survivor he was a tough dude he was in a

1084
00:41:16,490 --> 00:41:15,119
uh some kind of mental institution he

1085
00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:16,500
literally broke out through the plumbing

1086
00:41:20,569 --> 00:41:19,140
like you know Shawshank Redemption Gary

1087
00:41:22,910 --> 00:41:20,579
was a tough guy if anyone could have

1088
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,920
gotten out of that those up you know off

1089
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,240
that mountain it would have been Gary

1090
00:41:28,069 --> 00:41:26,160
you know maybe he's in a homeless Camp

1091
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:28,079
somewhere and he just doesn't know who

1092
00:41:31,970 --> 00:41:30,720
he is uh because he's so long off his

1093
00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:31,980
medication he would have you know

1094
00:41:34,970 --> 00:41:34,260
started really uh losing it you know I

1095
00:41:37,370 --> 00:41:34,980
know

1096
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:37,380
um one of the family members uh Jack

1097
00:41:40,730 --> 00:41:39,720
mataruga's Aunt

1098
00:41:42,770 --> 00:41:40,740
um

1099
00:41:46,730 --> 00:41:42,780
I actually know his niece sorry his

1100
00:41:49,130 --> 00:41:46,740
niece uh swear she saw Gary Matthias uh

1101
00:41:50,510 --> 00:41:49,140
long after the bodies were recovered she

1102
00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:50,520
thought she saw him at her parents bar

1103
00:41:55,010 --> 00:41:52,380
called La Casablanca in the Yuba City

1104
00:41:56,690 --> 00:41:55,020
area and recalled walking out of the

1105
00:41:58,190 --> 00:41:56,700
bathroom and seeing Gary Matthias at the

1106
00:42:00,109 --> 00:41:58,200
bar and she was like oh my God that's

1107
00:42:02,089 --> 00:42:00,119
Gary you know she went and told her

1108
00:42:04,190 --> 00:42:02,099
mother about it and then she called the

1109
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:04,200
police and you know by that time you

1110
00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:05,700
know the person she thought was Gary had

1111
00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:07,740
left it she knew him pretty well and the

1112
00:42:10,609 --> 00:42:09,180
police showed pictures and said it was

1113
00:42:12,170 --> 00:42:10,619
it you know are you sure this is him she

1114
00:42:15,470 --> 00:42:12,180
goes yeah I know Gary Matthias you know

1115
00:42:17,329 --> 00:42:15,480
I've known him for years so uh she

1116
00:42:19,069 --> 00:42:17,339
believed she saw him I don't know if

1117
00:42:20,990 --> 00:42:19,079
that if if she really did but she I

1118
00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:21,000
could tell you she believed she saw him

1119
00:42:27,290 --> 00:42:23,880
yeah and uh back to your point and then

1120
00:42:28,490 --> 00:42:27,300
uh uh we'll move on uh to uh the Zodiac

1121
00:42:31,490 --> 00:42:28,500
Killer

1122
00:42:33,829 --> 00:42:31,500
um Orville is a it's it's a city you

1123
00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:33,839
know I mean that it's pretty substantial

1124
00:42:39,310 --> 00:42:37,020
you know it's it is it's it's not it's

1125
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:39,320
not like a two-horse town

1126
00:42:45,589 --> 00:42:42,800
it's an actual City full of people

1127
00:42:47,690 --> 00:42:45,599
and if you you would know that you were

1128
00:42:49,069 --> 00:42:47,700
an Orville and heading the wrong way and

1129
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:49,079
you would have simply just turned around

1130
00:42:53,089 --> 00:42:51,359
and they or asked for help or you know

1131
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:53,099
pull into a gas station or something

1132
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:56,160
yeah yeah yeah because Orville's a city

1133
00:43:02,270 --> 00:42:59,520
city it's uh it's not even a a big town

1134
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:02,280
it's it's like a real City so a

1135
00:43:07,970 --> 00:43:06,000
fascinating case and uh I don't I don't

1136
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:07,980
know if we'll ever if we'll ever get

1137
00:43:13,130 --> 00:43:10,560
this figured out and plus uh here's the

1138
00:43:16,609 --> 00:43:13,140
other part this is 1978. this is a

1139
00:43:20,990 --> 00:43:16,619
modern case right this isn't uh uh

1140
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:21,000
people are still around uh it's 1978 and

1141
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:23,520
you would think that something like this

1142
00:43:28,670 --> 00:43:25,920
would would be solved by now and it is

1143
00:43:30,530 --> 00:43:28,680
not and we still have a missing body

1144
00:43:32,270 --> 00:43:30,540
yeah I still have a missing body I can

1145
00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:32,280
tell you that when we finally got access

1146
00:43:36,290 --> 00:43:34,740
to all the police files uh one point you

1147
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,300
had to actually go there to see him on a

1148
00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:38,880
screen like Tony did and then later

1149
00:43:43,010 --> 00:43:41,339
um Mopac audio did a Yuba County five uh

1150
00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:43,020
podcast called the Yuba podcast which is

1151
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:45,119
fantastic I was a part of it uh they

1152
00:43:48,589 --> 00:43:46,319
found out that in the file somebody

1153
00:43:50,270 --> 00:43:48,599
added a note and this was only like uh

1154
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:50,280
you know five or six years ago that they

1155
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:53,520
considered it a homicide you know

1156
00:43:57,230 --> 00:43:55,800
um a possible you know Foul Play In this

1157
00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:57,240
case it was a note I think they said

1158
00:44:01,069 --> 00:43:59,040
that Gary matthias's disappearance are

1159
00:44:02,510 --> 00:44:01,079
considering a homicide and we don't know

1160
00:44:04,430 --> 00:44:02,520
if that's because they know something or

1161
00:44:06,829 --> 00:44:04,440
they just wanted to keep the case active

1162
00:44:08,930 --> 00:44:06,839
by saying that it's a homicide we don't

1163
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:08,940
know uh could this be connected to the

1164
00:44:13,130 --> 00:44:11,520
town bully we're not sure of uh now

1165
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:13,140
we're wondering more about their coach

1166
00:44:17,710 --> 00:44:15,119
from the Gateway Gators because we know

1167
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:17,720
now that the coach hated Gary Matthias

1168
00:44:22,730 --> 00:44:20,400
uh he was really evasive during police

1169
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:22,740
questioning he went to the game the next

1170
00:44:26,089 --> 00:44:24,180
day that he was coaching for the Special

1171
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:26,099
Olympics he was didn't go to their

1172
00:44:30,349 --> 00:44:28,079
Meetup place he actually just went

1173
00:44:31,609 --> 00:44:30,359
straight to uh I can't remember the town

1174
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:31,619
right out of Sacramento where the game

1175
00:44:34,609 --> 00:44:33,119
was going to be played so there's some

1176
00:44:37,309 --> 00:44:34,619
suspicion on him now and he's still

1177
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:37,319
alive too so there's all these different

1178
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:39,839
angles of what could be going on here

1179
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:43,680
paranormal Town bully to coach

1180
00:44:47,569 --> 00:44:46,319
um you know it just it we're still no

1181
00:44:49,609 --> 00:44:47,579
closer every time you think you figure

1182
00:44:54,490 --> 00:44:49,619
something out you have 10 more questions

1183
00:45:00,170 --> 00:44:58,190
Supernatural or human I don't know uh

1184
00:45:03,530 --> 00:45:00,180
but something spooked him and you don't

1185
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:03,540
go up you don't go up like you know what

1186
00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:05,040
you know what they say you don't go up

1187
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:08,220
you go down or you know uphill One Way

1188
00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:10,380
ten feet of snow that's the that's yeah

1189
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:13,260
that's in street clothes street clothes

1190
00:45:19,730 --> 00:45:14,960
that's not the direction you're going

1191
00:45:20,809 --> 00:45:19,740
freezing freezing oh man the Zodiac

1192
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:20,819
Killer

1193
00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:22,980
now

1194
00:45:30,170 --> 00:45:26,220
um uh I have just slobal I haven't done

1195
00:45:32,270 --> 00:45:30,180
it as much as you but I've seen just

1196
00:45:34,670 --> 00:45:32,280
about every documentary I can see I've

1197
00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:34,680
read so many books

1198
00:45:40,730 --> 00:45:38,460
um so much research uh into this

1199
00:45:43,490 --> 00:45:40,740
um this case still to this day scares

1200
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:43,500
the crap out of me and and I'll tell you

1201
00:45:48,349 --> 00:45:46,640
what scares the crap out of me the most

1202
00:45:52,190 --> 00:45:48,359
we've all

1203
00:45:56,770 --> 00:45:52,200
well us boys

1204
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:56,780
we've all been out with our girlfriend

1205
00:46:04,430 --> 00:46:00,720
rights in your parents car and you can

1206
00:46:06,730 --> 00:46:04,440
go some remote location so you can make

1207
00:46:10,490 --> 00:46:06,740
out right

1208
00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:10,500
yeah right right yeah yeah yeah exactly

1209
00:46:17,150 --> 00:46:12,720
um and and you look up

1210
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:17,160
and you see the Zodiac Killer with with

1211
00:46:24,290 --> 00:46:20,480
the cross on his chest staring you down

1212
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:24,300
that is that it I cannot get that out of

1213
00:46:29,569 --> 00:46:26,400
my mind and then it's you know what

1214
00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:29,579
happens after that right okay so that's

1215
00:46:34,849 --> 00:46:31,740
that's the Zodiac Killer and that is

1216
00:46:38,089 --> 00:46:34,859
just a small sliver of one of the

1217
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:38,099
craziest cases in U.S history oh

1218
00:46:43,069 --> 00:46:40,319
absolutely I mean it's steeped in

1219
00:46:44,809 --> 00:46:43,079
Mystique I mean you had a guy uh with

1220
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,819
the Zodiac like you said he's wearing

1221
00:46:48,530 --> 00:46:46,800
that black costume at one of the attacks

1222
00:46:51,290 --> 00:46:48,540
and it's only known because there was a

1223
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:51,300
survivor of that one but uh it's just

1224
00:46:55,490 --> 00:46:54,240
yeah just a frightening image and uh you

1225
00:46:57,950 --> 00:46:55,500
know three of the you know there's what

1226
00:47:00,290 --> 00:46:57,960
we call Four canonical zodiac crimes and

1227
00:47:02,270 --> 00:47:00,300
three of them were couples uh on you

1228
00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:02,280
know basically on a date you know so

1229
00:47:06,650 --> 00:47:04,260
they like just like you said up that's

1230
00:47:10,190 --> 00:47:06,660
uh young couples the first happened on

1231
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:10,200
uh December 20th of 1968 it was a 17

1232
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:12,240
year old 16 year old Betty Luke Jensen

1233
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:14,160
and David Faraday out on a first date

1234
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:16,380
had just gone to a pre-Christmas concert

1235
00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:17,520
because it was getting to be near

1236
00:47:23,089 --> 00:47:20,760
Christmas and uh they were parked doing

1237
00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:23,099
whatever they were going to do and um a

1238
00:47:26,809 --> 00:47:25,380
man just walks up to uh David station

1239
00:47:30,050 --> 00:47:26,819
wagon he was driving his parents station

1240
00:47:31,309 --> 00:47:30,060
wagon and he starts just uh [\h__\h] up to

1241
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:31,319
David's driver's side window and just

1242
00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:34,560
starts firing into his car uh Betty Lou

1243
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:37,260
gets out and she's shot in the back uh

1244
00:47:41,089 --> 00:47:39,359
David's shot in that in I think the

1245
00:47:43,069 --> 00:47:41,099
right side of his head and he he dies

1246
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,079
about I think a little a little longer

1247
00:47:46,849 --> 00:47:45,359
but uh Betty Lou's killed uh no

1248
00:47:49,069 --> 00:47:46,859
witnesses to that attack at all but

1249
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:49,079
that's what started it all on uh

1250
00:47:53,930 --> 00:47:51,599
December 20th 1968 that was the the

1251
00:47:56,809 --> 00:47:53,940
first known zodiac attack of course the

1252
00:47:59,569 --> 00:47:56,819
name doesn't show up until

1253
00:48:01,010 --> 00:47:59,579
um early August of 1969 when he starts

1254
00:48:03,589 --> 00:48:01,020
this letter writing campaign he first

1255
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:03,599
since uh his first three letters with a

1256
00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:06,720
three-part Cipher in uh Late July of

1257
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:08,880
1969 after the second attack which

1258
00:48:12,770 --> 00:48:10,140
happened in a place called Blue Rock

1259
00:48:15,530 --> 00:48:12,780
Springs Park on July 4th 69 where

1260
00:48:17,770 --> 00:48:15,540
another couple shot in their car

1261
00:48:20,329 --> 00:48:17,780
um Darlene farron and Mike mujo

1262
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:20,339
out and they're shot in kind of a

1263
00:48:24,530 --> 00:48:22,079
similar match and he that the man gets

1264
00:48:26,030 --> 00:48:24,540
out he shoots into their car uh killing

1265
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:26,040
Betty Lou might be Joe winds up

1266
00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:27,900
Surviving but he was really affected by

1267
00:48:32,210 --> 00:48:30,660
it but we first know after you know

1268
00:48:34,550 --> 00:48:32,220
weeks two or three weeks after that

1269
00:48:36,290 --> 00:48:34,560
crime that three different letters with

1270
00:48:38,329 --> 00:48:36,300
a three-part Cipher like each letter

1271
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:38,339
comes with a part of a cipher that has

1272
00:48:41,450 --> 00:48:40,319
to be put together to decode it and they

1273
00:48:44,089 --> 00:48:41,460
came to three different Bay Area

1274
00:48:47,569 --> 00:48:44,099
newspapers and uh that Cipher was

1275
00:48:50,510 --> 00:48:47,579
eventually uh broken by a schoolteacher

1276
00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:50,520
named Don Harden and his wife uh Betty

1277
00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:52,920
Hardin and they just sat at their table

1278
00:48:57,589 --> 00:48:54,900
and and figured it out and it was just

1279
00:49:00,770 --> 00:48:57,599
this weird cryptic stuff you know about

1280
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:00,780
uh you know just the Zodiac rantings I

1281
00:49:03,650 --> 00:49:02,160
call them but the first time he ever

1282
00:49:06,170 --> 00:49:03,660
said zodiac is a letter that showed up

1283
00:49:08,809 --> 00:49:06,180
in early August it said this is the

1284
00:49:11,089 --> 00:49:08,819
Zodiac speaking you know that was the we

1285
00:49:14,930 --> 00:49:11,099
first had a name of what he was calling

1286
00:49:16,190 --> 00:49:14,940
himself was uh early August of 69. do

1287
00:49:18,589 --> 00:49:16,200
you think

1288
00:49:20,510 --> 00:49:18,599
um and we're going to get uh very deep

1289
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:20,520
into this case because it is just

1290
00:49:26,329 --> 00:49:22,319
absolutely fascinating again never

1291
00:49:28,370 --> 00:49:26,339
caught we have a long list of suspects

1292
00:49:30,410 --> 00:49:28,380
um do you think that the the letter

1293
00:49:32,030 --> 00:49:30,420
writing

1294
00:49:33,770 --> 00:49:32,040
um and some excellent movies have been

1295
00:49:38,750 --> 00:49:33,780
made about this and documentaries for

1296
00:49:42,050 --> 00:49:38,760
sure but it seems to me that

1297
00:49:43,069 --> 00:49:42,060
he he he was upset that nobody knew who

1298
00:49:45,410 --> 00:49:43,079
he was

1299
00:49:47,150 --> 00:49:45,420
right that you know what I mean he

1300
00:49:50,089 --> 00:49:47,160
wanted credit he wanted he wanted credit

1301
00:49:52,849 --> 00:49:50,099
right right he wanted credit and he

1302
00:49:55,130 --> 00:49:52,859
wanted to uh you know the letter writing

1303
00:49:57,290 --> 00:49:55,140
in the ciphers were more important than

1304
00:49:59,990 --> 00:49:57,300
the actual acts I really believe that I

1305
00:50:02,450 --> 00:50:00,000
think the whole fear campaign and the

1306
00:50:04,010 --> 00:50:02,460
taunting in the letters uh I think that

1307
00:50:06,290 --> 00:50:04,020
somewhat maybe inspired by Jack the

1308
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:06,300
Ripper uh was uh which we don't even

1309
00:50:08,750 --> 00:50:07,680
know if those letters were Jack the

1310
00:50:10,430 --> 00:50:08,760
Ripper but I think the whole thing

1311
00:50:14,329 --> 00:50:10,440
inspired him and he wanted to create

1312
00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:14,339
fear and panic and and and really got

1313
00:50:17,569 --> 00:50:16,260
off on that whole fear campaign of the

1314
00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:17,579
letter writing I think that was far more

1315
00:50:22,190 --> 00:50:20,220
important than the actual attacks like I

1316
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:22,200
said he left two two victims alive two

1317
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:24,240
of the male victims uh Mike Bijou from

1318
00:50:28,250 --> 00:50:25,680
Blue Rock Springs and Brian Hartnell

1319
00:50:29,809 --> 00:50:28,260
from uh Lake Berryessa uh you know

1320
00:50:31,730 --> 00:50:29,819
fortunately Brian survived that's how we

1321
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:31,740
know he was wearing that Executioner's

1322
00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:33,839
Hood at that particular daytime attack

1323
00:50:39,530 --> 00:50:35,940
with that cross circle logo which

1324
00:50:41,089 --> 00:50:39,540
basically means zodiac uh so I think

1325
00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:41,099
that was just far more important to him

1326
00:50:46,910 --> 00:50:43,560
to be to the taunting and letter writing

1327
00:50:48,410 --> 00:50:46,920
been a lot more than the actual killing

1328
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:48,420
how many

1329
00:50:52,970 --> 00:50:50,640
um we've got about eight minutes to the

1330
00:50:53,809 --> 00:50:52,980
break how many suspects right now to

1331
00:50:57,130 --> 00:50:53,819
date

1332
00:50:59,630 --> 00:50:57,140
oh man uh-huh

1333
00:51:00,770 --> 00:50:59,640
I'd say

1334
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:00,780
30

1335
00:51:09,470 --> 00:51:04,559
have some background on and know about

1336
00:51:11,630 --> 00:51:09,480
about roughly 30. how many confessions

1337
00:51:13,609 --> 00:51:11,640
um God there's you know there's a lot of

1338
00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:13,619
a lot of them have confessed to uh you

1339
00:51:17,569 --> 00:51:15,180
know maybe a family member so they

1340
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:17,579
confess I don't know of any any direct

1341
00:51:21,650 --> 00:51:20,220
confessions right from a viable suspect

1342
00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:21,660
I don't know of any where the person

1343
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:24,240
said I was the Zodiac right right right

1344
00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:27,599
but we have uh we have like a half a

1345
00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:29,880
dozen of those two is what's like the

1346
00:51:36,309 --> 00:51:32,520
strength and uh like I was saying to you

1347
00:51:38,690 --> 00:51:36,319
earlier not everything can be right

1348
00:51:40,430 --> 00:51:38,700
yeah we can't be it can't be all these

1349
00:51:42,109 --> 00:51:40,440
guys you know a lot of them seem very

1350
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:42,119
compelling but it can't it can only be

1351
00:51:47,630 --> 00:51:44,160
one

1352
00:51:50,990 --> 00:51:47,640
um uh let's say do you have we'll

1353
00:51:53,390 --> 00:51:51,000
continue after the break do you okay do

1354
00:51:55,069 --> 00:51:53,400
you think the Zodiac Killer is still

1355
00:51:59,450 --> 00:51:55,079
alive no

1356
00:52:04,069 --> 00:51:59,460
okay so your Prime Suspect

1357
00:52:08,089 --> 00:52:04,079
in this case is no longer with us no my

1358
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,099
my guy uh passed away in 2009 uh okay

1359
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:10,559
well okay so nobody's gonna get sued

1360
00:52:15,230 --> 00:52:13,440
here who's your who's your guy I I

1361
00:52:17,690 --> 00:52:15,240
believe that the creator of what I call

1362
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:17,700
the Zodiac Persona was a guy named

1363
00:52:22,250 --> 00:52:19,440
Donald Lee Chaney

1364
00:52:24,829 --> 00:52:22,260
um yeah good choice

1365
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:24,839
um and and your reasons for that are are

1366
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:28,079
are many because a lot of things pointed

1367
00:52:32,089 --> 00:52:30,960
at him uh but but what's your like top

1368
00:52:35,630 --> 00:52:32,099
five

1369
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:35,640
oh you know uh I'd like Cheney and of

1370
00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:37,440
course with Cheney goes his his good

1371
00:52:42,109 --> 00:52:39,420
friend Arthur Lee Allen who's today the

1372
00:52:43,790 --> 00:52:42,119
prime suspect in the case uh you know

1373
00:52:47,170 --> 00:52:43,800
after that there's no one that's really

1374
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:47,180
strong uh Rick Marshall

1375
00:52:52,130 --> 00:52:50,160
uh you know there's a newer suspect that

1376
00:52:53,930 --> 00:52:52,140
came along by an author named Jared

1377
00:52:55,849 --> 00:52:53,940
kobach

1378
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:55,859
um named Paul doer I think he's pretty

1379
00:53:00,290 --> 00:52:58,079
good the way he found Paul Dover I put

1380
00:53:03,710 --> 00:53:00,300
him at number three cheating and Allen

1381
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:03,720
uh Rick Marshall for number five I would

1382
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:05,460
say

1383
00:53:08,450 --> 00:53:06,960
it's hard even harder to come up with

1384
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:08,460
number five definitely not Larry Kane or

1385
00:53:13,490 --> 00:53:10,920
Ross Sullivan uh

1386
00:53:15,710 --> 00:53:13,500
I I can't even think of a fifth one just

1387
00:53:18,609 --> 00:53:15,720
those four guys are the only ones

1388
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:18,619
that I think are even players in my mind

1389
00:53:25,490 --> 00:53:22,559
there's a lot what about uh post

1390
00:53:28,370 --> 00:53:25,500
oh he's oh okay

1391
00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:28,380
uh post is terrible I'm just gonna be

1392
00:53:34,730 --> 00:53:32,460
honest today he's awful he's awful he

1393
00:53:37,609 --> 00:53:34,740
you know it's great that he's got a

1394
00:53:39,589 --> 00:53:37,619
champion and an ex-media guy and Tom

1395
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:39,599
Colbert who you know I'm well familiar

1396
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:42,240
with from the DB Cooper uh stuff that

1397
00:53:47,569 --> 00:53:44,160
they've done but uh

1398
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:47,579
post awful he's just he's he has nothing

1399
00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:49,440
going for him at all and you can read

1400
00:53:54,170 --> 00:53:52,020
these misleading headlines of FBI knows

1401
00:53:56,750 --> 00:53:54,180
who it is it was Gary post just read the

1402
00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:56,760
fine print they have nothing uh an FBI

1403
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,260
Source could be anybody you want it to

1404
00:54:02,510 --> 00:54:00,480
be you know name the guy have a current

1405
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:02,520
FBI agent come on camera and say that

1406
00:54:06,049 --> 00:54:04,260
they believe it's scary post and then

1407
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:06,059
that'll start to move a little bit but

1408
00:54:10,490 --> 00:54:07,680
it is what we call the Zodiac Community

1409
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,500
online community he's at the bottom of

1410
00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:12,240
the list literally it's not just me it's

1411
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:15,020
it's probably anybody that's a serious

1412
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:18,480
uh student of this case does not give

1413
00:54:26,569 --> 00:54:22,160
post any any validity whatsoever

1414
00:54:30,470 --> 00:54:26,579
were you suggesting that uh that Arthur

1415
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:30,480
and Cheney uh uh Arthur Lee

1416
00:54:36,049 --> 00:54:33,599
um were were partners in crime I think

1417
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:36,059
arterly Allen had some knowledge of what

1418
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:37,920
was going on I think Cheney was creating

1419
00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:41,280
it I think Allen had a had a cursory

1420
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:44,280
involvement with writing the letters and

1421
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:46,079
I think Cheney was the lead attacker at

1422
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:47,760
least on three of them I think they

1423
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:48,960
could have both been together at Lake

1424
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:50,880
Herman Road there's evidence of one of

1425
00:54:54,589 --> 00:54:52,319
the shell casings looks like it may have

1426
00:54:57,109 --> 00:54:54,599
come from a different gun

1427
00:54:58,970 --> 00:54:57,119
um but I think the rest of it's Cheney I

1428
00:55:00,710 --> 00:54:58,980
definitely think it was Cheney it as the

1429
00:55:03,170 --> 00:55:00,720
attacker at Lake Berryessa where he's

1430
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:03,180
wearing that costume uh there's a lot of

1431
00:55:08,569 --> 00:55:05,040
reasons I couldn't have been Alan number

1432
00:55:10,790 --> 00:55:08,579
one Alan was completely bald and they uh

1433
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:10,800
both victims in in Lake Berryessa

1434
00:55:14,569 --> 00:55:13,200
Cecilia Shepherd Brian Hartnell saw on

1435
00:55:16,609 --> 00:55:14,579
you know coming through the eyelets of

1436
00:55:18,349 --> 00:55:16,619
that mask which had like a clip on

1437
00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:18,359
sunglasses on it they could both see

1438
00:55:22,250 --> 00:55:19,980
long brown hair coming through the

1439
00:55:23,930 --> 00:55:22,260
eyelets right and Alan was totally bald

1440
00:55:26,990 --> 00:55:23,940
at that point so you'd have to say okay

1441
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:27,000
if that's Alan he's wearing wig so why

1442
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:28,440
would you wear a wig number one that

1443
00:55:32,510 --> 00:55:30,780
would have hair that long and then wear

1444
00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:32,520
it under a hood that first of all I

1445
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:33,720
can't see your face anyway you don't

1446
00:55:37,549 --> 00:55:35,520
need a disguise at this point but it

1447
00:55:39,710 --> 00:55:37,559
would shift you know under that hood

1448
00:55:41,690 --> 00:55:39,720
which would be a major disadvantage

1449
00:55:43,250 --> 00:55:41,700
when you're walking up to subdue this

1450
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:43,260
couple and you know and he probably

1451
00:55:46,430 --> 00:55:44,400
didn't figure that the guy Brian

1452
00:55:48,170 --> 00:55:46,440
Hartnell was six seven

1453
00:55:50,450 --> 00:55:48,180
and you know almost made a play for the

1454
00:55:52,430 --> 00:55:50,460
gun at that case so there's just a lot

1455
00:55:53,930 --> 00:55:52,440
of reasons that it it wasn't Allen at

1456
00:55:57,290 --> 00:55:53,940
Lake Berryessa so I think that was

1457
00:55:59,030 --> 00:55:57,300
Cheney and uh I think these two guys

1458
00:56:01,549 --> 00:55:59,040
where where

1459
00:56:05,530 --> 00:56:01,559
coming up with this together and Cheney

1460
00:56:09,950 --> 00:56:05,540
made it real now do you think um Arthur

1461
00:56:13,130 --> 00:56:09,960
uh Lee Allen made the costumes

1462
00:56:15,230 --> 00:56:13,140
no I think Cheney made it he was an avid

1463
00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:15,240
sewer he was an avid sewer he made

1464
00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:17,400
leather yeah I know that they brought

1465
00:56:22,370 --> 00:56:20,640
all of that up uh about Cheney and and I

1466
00:56:24,589 --> 00:56:22,380
think Cheney is is one of the lead

1467
00:56:26,569 --> 00:56:24,599
suspects here for sure

1468
00:56:31,130 --> 00:56:26,579
um even though he's no longer with us

1469
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:31,140
but it seemed like uh for me that uh Lee

1470
00:56:36,109 --> 00:56:32,880
Allen

1471
00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:36,119
um was a partner in these crimes and he

1472
00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:38,700
was Cheney was going out and committing

1473
00:56:44,270 --> 00:56:42,480
their crimes and and Lee Allen is doing

1474
00:56:48,349 --> 00:56:44,280
everything else behind the scenes like

1475
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:48,359
the letter writing and the confusing of

1476
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:50,640
uh law enforcement writing to three

1477
00:56:56,450 --> 00:56:54,000
different newspapers and ciphers and

1478
00:56:59,150 --> 00:56:56,460
creating the Persona and maybe even

1479
00:57:02,089 --> 00:56:59,160
coming up with the name zodiac and then

1480
00:57:06,589 --> 00:57:02,099
Cheney was committing the crimes and

1481
00:57:07,250 --> 00:57:06,599
I've all that kind of fits uh in in my

1482
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:07,260
eyes

1483
00:57:12,049 --> 00:57:09,359
it fits a lot you know I think the

1484
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,059
ciphers are all Cheney Cheney was a

1485
00:57:15,950 --> 00:57:14,160
mechanical engineer you could tell when

1486
00:57:18,650 --> 00:57:15,960
you look at those ciphers that they're

1487
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:18,660
perfectly aligned on a grid horizontally

1488
00:57:22,849 --> 00:57:20,700
and vertically this is done on a

1489
00:57:24,109 --> 00:57:22,859
drafting table a light table where you

1490
00:57:25,849 --> 00:57:24,119
have the graph paper under it and then

1491
00:57:27,950 --> 00:57:25,859
your plain piece of paper over it so we

1492
00:57:29,210 --> 00:57:27,960
can write those little symbols perfectly

1493
00:57:31,609 --> 00:57:29,220
if you look at them all they're perfect

1494
00:57:32,809 --> 00:57:31,619
uh because he's using an alignment grid

1495
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,819
you know it's something a Layman just

1496
00:57:35,930 --> 00:57:34,319
wouldn't have had back then Cheney was a

1497
00:57:37,549 --> 00:57:35,940
mechanical engineer so he was a

1498
00:57:39,829 --> 00:57:37,559
draftsman because back then you didn't

1499
00:57:42,530 --> 00:57:39,839
really have AutoCAD you did it by hand

1500
00:57:44,450 --> 00:57:42,540
and Cheney had that that skill set that

1501
00:57:46,190 --> 00:57:44,460
Alan didn't have and plus Cheney was a

1502
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:46,200
was a math of the math guy he was a

1503
00:57:49,490 --> 00:57:48,240
mechanical engineer Allen was not Alan

1504
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:49,500
did not have a propensity for

1505
00:57:53,690 --> 00:57:51,599
mathematics ciphers are based in math

1506
00:57:55,370 --> 00:57:53,700
the Zodiac talked about you know showed

1507
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:55,380
the compass rose over Mount Diablo he

1508
00:57:59,630 --> 00:57:57,119
talked about inches along the radians

1509
00:58:01,250 --> 00:57:59,640
and his bus bomb letter this is a lot of

1510
00:58:03,290 --> 00:58:01,260
mathematical influence coming in here

1511
00:58:04,910 --> 00:58:03,300
kind of like how Ted Kaczynski becomes a

1512
00:58:06,349 --> 00:58:04,920
suspect I didn't add that for my number

1513
00:58:08,930 --> 00:58:06,359
five I don't think he's terrible Ted

1514
00:58:11,150 --> 00:58:08,940
Kaczynski add them for for my number

1515
00:58:12,650 --> 00:58:11,160
five guy you can fill it out there uh

1516
00:58:15,530 --> 00:58:12,660
but Cheney had Cheney had the math

1517
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:15,540
background for sure right right which

1518
00:58:19,790 --> 00:58:17,280
Allen just didn't have so I think Cheney

1519
00:58:21,410 --> 00:58:19,800
did the ciphers I think out I think they

1520
00:58:23,930 --> 00:58:21,420
both had input in the original letters

1521
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:23,940
uh of course Cheney's already after the

1522
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:25,680
first attack moves to Pomona California

1523
00:58:30,829 --> 00:58:29,040
just outside of uh L.A so she needed to

1524
00:58:33,049 --> 00:58:30,839
do this he had to drive quite a bit but

1525
00:58:35,990 --> 00:58:33,059
it's hey it's it's definitely possible

1526
00:58:37,970 --> 00:58:36,000
it's a long ride but definitely doable

1527
00:58:39,890 --> 00:58:37,980
uh when you look at the time of the

1528
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:39,900
attacks they were all either on a

1529
00:58:44,270 --> 00:58:42,240
holiday weekend like Fourth of July or a

1530
00:58:45,770 --> 00:58:44,280
Sunday uh definitely somebody was

1531
00:58:47,569 --> 00:58:45,780
working if you look at the dates of the

1532
00:58:49,970 --> 00:58:47,579
letters and the mailings and the crimes

1533
00:58:52,069 --> 00:58:49,980
it's somebody that was tied down to some

1534
00:58:53,809 --> 00:58:52,079
form of a daytime job which Cheney

1535
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:53,819
basically had he floated around a lot

1536
00:59:00,170 --> 00:58:56,160
but he was had a young family and he had

1537
00:59:03,410 --> 00:59:00,180
to have some form of uh income now what

1538
00:59:06,829 --> 00:59:03,420
do you make of uh the police had their

1539
00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:06,839
eyes on quite a few people and were were

1540
00:59:12,670 --> 00:59:10,559
following following and this was a huge

1541
00:59:16,730 --> 00:59:12,680
case right huge case they had a lot of

1542
00:59:19,609 --> 00:59:16,740
uh a lot of Manpower and and woman power

1543
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:19,619
a lot of Manpower on this case but no

1544
00:59:26,510 --> 00:59:23,280
evidence right it's like the craziest

1545
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:26,520
thing if you were uh doing you know a

1546
00:59:32,089 --> 00:59:28,260
letter writing campaign and you're

1547
00:59:36,349 --> 00:59:32,099
making costumes and you've got a weapon

1548
00:59:38,510 --> 00:59:36,359
um and and not just nothing right no

1549
00:59:40,970 --> 00:59:38,520
evidence of this case surfaced

1550
00:59:43,069 --> 00:59:40,980
nothing I mean very little physical

1551
00:59:45,410 --> 00:59:43,079
evidence he left behind some bindings at

1552
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,420
Lake Berryessa there's you know they're

1553
00:59:48,770 --> 00:59:47,280
collected by the Napa Police Department

1554
00:59:51,049 --> 00:59:48,780
and there's photographs of the police

1555
00:59:54,289 --> 00:59:51,059
handling those bindings with their bare

1556
00:59:56,690 --> 00:59:54,299
hands so forget about touch DNA there uh

1557
01:00:00,109 --> 00:59:56,700
any hope at all comes from DNA from the

1558
01:00:02,089 --> 01:00:00,119
letters and that it that is is just that

1559
01:00:05,270 --> 01:00:02,099
we need a four-hour show just to go over

1560
01:00:07,309 --> 01:00:05,280
that because it's so screwed up I know I

1561
01:00:09,890 --> 01:00:07,319
know I'm so screwed up it does doesn't

1562
01:00:12,470 --> 01:00:09,900
make any sense

1563
01:00:15,710 --> 01:00:12,480
he licked the stamp

1564
01:00:17,450 --> 01:00:15,720
yeah well you know Don Cheney famously

1565
01:00:19,609 --> 01:00:17,460
said that he licked arthurly Allen

1566
01:00:21,470 --> 01:00:19,619
stamps yes

1567
01:00:22,970 --> 01:00:21,480
really

1568
01:00:24,650 --> 01:00:22,980
that's what started it all for me

1569
01:00:27,109 --> 01:00:24,660
personally when I heard that man say

1570
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:27,119
that I was like wait a minute what you

1571
01:00:31,250 --> 01:00:29,040
licked your buddy stamps right right

1572
01:00:33,170 --> 01:00:31,260
that's weird and he gave him a

1573
01:00:36,470 --> 01:00:33,180
thumbprint he gave Arthur Leon a

1574
01:00:42,789 --> 01:00:36,480
thumbprint and a ball of paraffin wax

1575
01:00:48,470 --> 01:00:44,870
you can either just have to say he's a

1576
01:00:53,930 --> 01:00:48,480
kook or he's involved yeah yeah exactly

1577
01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:53,940
um what happened to uh the um uh the

1578
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:56,640
evidence from the three newspapers you

1579
01:01:01,069 --> 01:00:59,040
know specifically the uh San Francisco

1580
01:01:03,230 --> 01:01:01,079
Chronicle

1581
01:01:04,970 --> 01:01:03,240
uh you know the all the chronicle

1582
01:01:06,410 --> 01:01:04,980
correspondence of course I turned over

1583
01:01:08,510 --> 01:01:06,420
to the San Francisco police department

1584
01:01:10,430 --> 01:01:08,520
and

1585
01:01:12,589 --> 01:01:10,440
um you know I think this a lot of this

1586
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:12,599
came to light when there was a a TV show

1587
01:01:17,089 --> 01:01:15,359
uh Primetime live with Diane Sawyer so

1588
01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:17,099
you got to show you how far how long ago

1589
01:01:21,410 --> 01:01:20,160
it was I think it was a 2002 and uh a

1590
01:01:22,849 --> 01:01:21,420
gentleman I can't remember his first

1591
01:01:25,250 --> 01:01:22,859
name but his last name was Phillips and

1592
01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:25,260
he was a producer for Prime Time live in

1593
01:01:29,450 --> 01:01:27,599
2020 and he took a real big interest in

1594
01:01:30,770 --> 01:01:29,460
the case and he wanted to have this

1595
01:01:32,750 --> 01:01:30,780
Prime Time live show where they're going

1596
01:01:34,670 --> 01:01:32,760
to get DNA results so we're going to

1597
01:01:37,490 --> 01:01:34,680
really get to the nitty-gritty and find

1598
01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:37,500
out who this guy was and he uh started

1599
01:01:40,849 --> 01:01:39,180
talking to the Head police that were in

1600
01:01:42,650 --> 01:01:40,859
charge of some of this you know the

1601
01:01:44,809 --> 01:01:42,660
boxes of letters and stuff and he was

1602
01:01:47,809 --> 01:01:44,819
absolutely floored by what he found out

1603
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:47,819
the way they were being stored was just

1604
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:50,160
you know some some literally like a

1605
01:01:54,170 --> 01:01:52,079
shoebox somewhere with all this stuff in

1606
01:01:55,849 --> 01:01:54,180
it a lot of the officers had taken the

1607
01:01:57,470 --> 01:01:55,859
letters home to show to their families

1608
01:01:59,329 --> 01:01:57,480
because there was so much Mystique

1609
01:02:01,010 --> 01:01:59,339
around this case and they were you know

1610
01:02:03,049 --> 01:02:01,020
handling around look Timmy that's from

1611
01:02:04,609 --> 01:02:03,059
zodiac at The Breakfast Table I mean

1612
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:04,619
literally that stuff was going on with

1613
01:02:08,930 --> 01:02:06,720
all that evidence it was deplorable the

1614
01:02:10,430 --> 01:02:08,940
way this stuff was being stored and they

1615
01:02:13,309 --> 01:02:10,440
were going to do DNA testing for the

1616
01:02:15,470 --> 01:02:13,319
show and and uh right when they were

1617
01:02:17,329 --> 01:02:15,480
filming it uh Phillips found three

1618
01:02:20,690 --> 01:02:17,339
letters that weren't even known to be

1619
01:02:23,030 --> 01:02:20,700
had at sfpd that a cop still had in his

1620
01:02:24,289 --> 01:02:23,040
possession and for probably one of those

1621
01:02:27,410 --> 01:02:24,299
I think they said they got a decent

1622
01:02:29,030 --> 01:02:27,420
sample from one and and here's here's

1623
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:29,040
the trippy thing uh we'll be talking

1624
01:02:33,829 --> 01:02:32,160
about DB Cooper as we after we wrap up

1625
01:02:36,370 --> 01:02:33,839
with the zodiac

1626
01:02:39,650 --> 01:02:36,380
but the same

1627
01:02:41,829 --> 01:02:39,660
Mucky muck went out in the DB Cooper

1628
01:02:44,329 --> 01:02:41,839
case

1629
01:02:46,430 --> 01:02:44,339
I mean I know you look at this and

1630
01:02:49,010 --> 01:02:46,440
you're like there's more aren't we

1631
01:02:52,370 --> 01:02:49,020
talking about the FBI aren't there

1632
01:02:54,289 --> 01:02:52,380
levels of you know are there standards

1633
01:02:57,289 --> 01:02:54,299
when they go to Quantico aren't there

1634
01:02:59,150 --> 01:02:57,299
certain things that need to happen and

1635
01:03:01,069 --> 01:02:59,160
we'll talk about all of that when we

1636
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:01,079
come back uh Drew let's take our break

1637
01:03:06,230 --> 01:03:03,599
right here this is Fade to Black I'm

1638
01:03:08,210 --> 01:03:06,240
your host Jimmy Church stay with us

1639
01:03:10,549 --> 01:03:08,220
this is Jimmy Church of Fade to Black

1640
01:03:12,770 --> 01:03:10,559
please visit all of our sponsors we're

1641
01:03:14,450 --> 01:03:12,780
taking a quick break here all of the

1642
01:03:16,849 --> 01:03:14,460
links are below

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01:03:21,170 --> 01:03:16,859
and we'll be right back

1644
01:03:23,630 --> 01:03:21,180
join us November 10th 11th and 12th 2023

1645
01:03:26,329 --> 01:03:23,640
as disclosure Fest foundation and Fade

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01:03:28,849 --> 01:03:26,339
to Black radio presents Stairway To the

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Stars a human Origins Science and

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Technology Expo live at the Luxor Hotel

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and Casino and the Las Vegas Strip with

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live talks and lectures and workshops by

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World Acclaim researchers and authors

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this is Jimmy Church by the way and I'll

1653
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:43,319
be your host all weekend long featuring

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01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:45,599
topics like human Origins ancient

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Technologies indigenous teachings

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workshops a mass meditation yoga and

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sound healing music and so much more

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don't miss our intimate sky watch and

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meteor shower over the infamous Area 51

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airspace in Rachel Nevada with special

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surprise celebrity host guiding us

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01:04:09,410 --> 01:04:05,579
through the night also introducing our

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disclosure Fest VR Starship area with

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dozens of rides you've gotta check it

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out this event will sell out for more

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information and tickets Please visit

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disclosure s.org this is Jimmy church

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and I want to introduce you to lifewaves

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Carson also known as Forbidden Knowledge

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I want to talk to you about a very

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special event coming up July 30th 2023

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The Forbidden conscious Awards we're

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going to honor people who have been

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contributing to the conscious Community

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for decades people that you know and

1697
01:05:39,410 --> 01:05:37,500
love that have helped you get to higher

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levels of thought and Consciousness and

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sell out very fast you want to make sure

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you're there in person and guess what

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you can help vote for the winners voting

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is available on forbiddenknowledge.com

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and the categories are going to be

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researchers archaeologists space anomaly

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01:06:08,210 --> 01:06:05,400
hunters and of course a Lifetime

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01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:08,220
Achievement Award I'll be your key note

1713
01:06:12,049 --> 01:06:10,079
speaker that night at The Forbidden

1714
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:12,059
conscious Awards we have celebrity

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01:06:15,950 --> 01:06:14,400
guests performing we'll have a halftime

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01:06:17,630 --> 01:06:15,960
show where we're actually going to

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01:06:20,210 --> 01:06:17,640
perform music for you and don't forget

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01:06:22,130 --> 01:06:20,220
about the pre-event mixer where if you

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buy a box seat we'll be in the VIP

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section and you also have private access

1721
01:06:29,870 --> 01:06:26,760
to a VIP mixer with celebrity guests

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01:06:31,549 --> 01:06:29,880
Trey cans break bread Network and then

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01:06:33,529 --> 01:06:31,559
walk the red carpet with us and take

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amazing photos it's going to be a night

1725
01:06:36,950 --> 01:06:34,799
to remember you don't want to forget

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this make sure you hurry up and get your

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tickets because you're selling out very

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fast I want to see you there forbidden

1729
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1730
01:06:49,910 --> 01:06:46,500
[Music]

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all right Welcome Back Fade to Black I

1741
01:07:21,470 --> 01:07:18,599
am your host Jimmy church and tonight

1742
01:07:22,789 --> 01:07:21,480
we're talking to Drew Beeson and this

1743
01:07:26,029 --> 01:07:22,799
portion of the show it's brought to you

1744
01:07:28,750 --> 01:07:26,039
by accidental truth it is the new

1745
01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:28,760
documentary directed by Ron James

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01:07:35,809 --> 01:07:31,920
streaming on all platforms the links for

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01:07:38,470 --> 01:07:35,819
it are below yes this is required

1748
01:07:41,150 --> 01:07:38,480
viewing by our entire Community

1749
01:07:43,789 --> 01:07:41,160
accidental truth check it out I say it

1750
01:07:45,650 --> 01:07:43,799
all the time but my eight seconds in

1751
01:07:47,329 --> 01:07:45,660
this film

1752
01:07:51,410 --> 01:07:47,339
all right we'll leave that right there

1753
01:07:53,089 --> 01:07:51,420
true reason is our guest and now uh Drew

1754
01:07:59,750 --> 01:07:53,099
we're talking about the Zodiac Killer

1755
01:08:02,029 --> 01:07:59,760
and and today I don't think there isn't

1756
01:08:04,190 --> 01:08:02,039
a day of you know seven days a week I

1757
01:08:07,730 --> 01:08:04,200
don't think that there isn't a day that

1758
01:08:10,849 --> 01:08:07,740
we don't get a headline that says DNA

1759
01:08:12,890 --> 01:08:10,859
solves Cold Case right 50 years ago you

1760
01:08:15,710 --> 01:08:12,900
know somebody DNA has solved that you

1761
01:08:18,289 --> 01:08:15,720
know the killers you know was was buried

1762
01:08:21,530 --> 01:08:18,299
20 years ago he's no longer with us but

1763
01:08:23,570 --> 01:08:21,540
we have solved the case and uh I've read

1764
01:08:27,410 --> 01:08:23,580
of one today I've read another one

1765
01:08:29,329 --> 01:08:27,420
yesterday this happens all the time

1766
01:08:33,950 --> 01:08:29,339
um why

1767
01:08:38,150 --> 01:08:33,960
what's going on with the Zodiac case why

1768
01:08:40,849 --> 01:08:38,160
why is there no DNA evidence of one of

1769
01:08:44,450 --> 01:08:40,859
the biggest cases in in history

1770
01:08:46,610 --> 01:08:44,460
well first the first obvious thing is uh

1771
01:08:48,709 --> 01:08:46,620
the Zodiac was not a rapist like the

1772
01:08:51,169 --> 01:08:48,719
Golden State killer was and you know

1773
01:08:53,329 --> 01:08:51,179
although the Golden State killer Jody

1774
01:08:56,269 --> 01:08:53,339
Angelo committed multiple rapes I think

1775
01:08:58,729 --> 01:08:56,279
it was still uh you know kind of a a

1776
01:09:00,950 --> 01:08:58,739
good break and even having good DNA on

1777
01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:00,960
him and of course they match that up

1778
01:09:04,370 --> 01:09:03,120
genetic genealogy which is which is all

1779
01:09:05,689 --> 01:09:04,380
the thing now is how they you know

1780
01:09:07,309 --> 01:09:05,699
traced them down they'll find an uncle

1781
01:09:09,050 --> 01:09:07,319
and then they find a guy that kind of

1782
01:09:11,090 --> 01:09:09,060
fits the profile in that region of

1783
01:09:12,890 --> 01:09:11,100
California that was living there at that

1784
01:09:14,870 --> 01:09:12,900
time that's how they you know narrowed

1785
01:09:17,749 --> 01:09:14,880
down to catch you know Joseph D'Angelo

1786
01:09:19,309 --> 01:09:17,759
one of the most notorious bad guy

1787
01:09:20,809 --> 01:09:19,319
killers of all time so when that

1788
01:09:22,249 --> 01:09:20,819
happened you know being California

1789
01:09:24,289 --> 01:09:22,259
people were like why can't we have that

1790
01:09:25,970 --> 01:09:24,299
in the Zodiac well because he just

1791
01:09:29,450 --> 01:09:25,980
didn't leave behind much you know he

1792
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:29,460
didn't uh we have letters that you have

1793
01:09:34,669 --> 01:09:31,920
uh adhesive like you lick the envelope

1794
01:09:36,650 --> 01:09:34,679
flap you lit the you licked the stamp uh

1795
01:09:39,050 --> 01:09:36,660
potentially but like I was saying it's

1796
01:09:40,490 --> 01:09:39,060
so screwed up in this case I think you

1797
01:09:43,249 --> 01:09:40,500
know from the sfpd they said you know

1798
01:09:45,650 --> 01:09:43,259
the best happily God is from a letter

1799
01:09:48,110 --> 01:09:45,660
that the Zodiac wrote In 1978 that says

1800
01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:48,120
I am back with you and that's not even

1801
01:09:53,030 --> 01:09:51,120
considered a um a legitimate zodiac

1802
01:09:54,770 --> 01:09:53,040
letter I think that the most the experts

1803
01:09:55,790 --> 01:09:54,780
on it like handwriting experts kind of

1804
01:09:57,830 --> 01:09:55,800
waited and said they think it's a

1805
01:10:00,110 --> 01:09:57,840
forgery so we don't there's not even

1806
01:10:02,390 --> 01:10:00,120
agreement that that's a legitimate

1807
01:10:04,490 --> 01:10:02,400
Zodiac Killer letter the last agreed

1808
01:10:06,470 --> 01:10:04,500
upon authentic Zodiac Killer letter it

1809
01:10:08,570 --> 01:10:06,480
was in 1974 it's called The Exorcist

1810
01:10:11,330 --> 01:10:08,580
letter so that's you know a big reason

1811
01:10:13,010 --> 01:10:11,340
why he just didn't leave behind you know

1812
01:10:14,570 --> 01:10:13,020
there was no blood you know when he was

1813
01:10:16,130 --> 01:10:14,580
uh the only knife attack was Lake

1814
01:10:18,590 --> 01:10:16,140
Berryessa of course where he's stabbing

1815
01:10:20,169 --> 01:10:18,600
Brian and Cecilia but uh the only thing

1816
01:10:22,790 --> 01:10:20,179
he left behind there were some bindings

1817
01:10:24,050 --> 01:10:22,800
of that you know like I said there's a

1818
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:24,060
photo of the police touching it with

1819
01:10:26,689 --> 01:10:25,199
their bare hands because of course they

1820
01:10:29,689 --> 01:10:26,699
didn't know that you know DNA was going

1821
01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:29,699
to be a thing uh so I there's uh you

1822
01:10:33,770 --> 01:10:31,800
know technology is getting better with

1823
01:10:36,290 --> 01:10:33,780
DNA so my hope is that they do

1824
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:36,300
eventually get a really good sample from

1825
01:10:40,070 --> 01:10:38,159
some of the letters uh mainly from

1826
01:10:42,890 --> 01:10:40,080
letters that were housed by the Vallejo

1827
01:10:44,570 --> 01:10:42,900
Police Department so when the Zodiac

1828
01:10:46,130 --> 01:10:44,580
sent letters to the Vallejo Times Herald

1829
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:46,140
obviously those get turned over to the

1830
01:10:50,030 --> 01:10:47,760
Vallejo police department and of course

1831
01:10:51,350 --> 01:10:50,040
vallejo's ground zero for the Zodiac

1832
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:51,360
crimes because you know the first two

1833
01:10:55,010 --> 01:10:53,400
crimes were near there uh and of course

1834
01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:55,020
Arthur Le Allen lived you know dead

1835
01:10:59,870 --> 01:10:57,360
center in Vallejo at a 32 Fresno Street

1836
01:11:01,610 --> 01:10:59,880
so they sent their letters off that that

1837
01:11:03,830 --> 01:11:01,620
were you know at least hoping where it

1838
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:03,840
stored a little better than sfpd and

1839
01:11:08,149 --> 01:11:05,520
they sent all their stuff off for I

1840
01:11:09,709 --> 01:11:08,159
think Advanced DNA testing and we have

1841
01:11:12,649 --> 01:11:09,719
not heard anything back and that's been

1842
01:11:14,209 --> 01:11:12,659
years now from Vallejo there's a rumor

1843
01:11:16,490 --> 01:11:14,219
out there that they did get and it's a

1844
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:16,500
rumor just you know so

1845
01:11:19,729 --> 01:11:17,760
um you know take it with a grain of salt

1846
01:11:20,990 --> 01:11:19,739
that they did get a DNA sample from one

1847
01:11:23,290 --> 01:11:21,000
of them but it was from someone that

1848
01:11:27,229 --> 01:11:23,300
could not have been the Zodiac Killer

1849
01:11:29,689 --> 01:11:27,239
and the the uh the rumor is that it's

1850
01:11:31,970 --> 01:11:29,699
DNA of a woman but we know that the

1851
01:11:35,149 --> 01:11:31,980
Zodiac's a male there was witnesses to

1852
01:11:38,030 --> 01:11:35,159
him so who knows who licked what but now

1853
01:11:39,890 --> 01:11:38,040
throw that into the mix yeah you know my

1854
01:11:43,510 --> 01:11:39,900
hope my hope is they they finally do get

1855
01:11:47,990 --> 01:11:43,520
a good DNA extraction from a letter

1856
01:11:52,250 --> 01:11:48,000
wasn't the Golden State killer a suspect

1857
01:11:53,689 --> 01:11:52,260
uh for zodiac yeah Yes Yes actually a

1858
01:11:55,910 --> 01:11:53,699
lady named Ann pin wrote a book about

1859
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:55,920
that it's called yeah zodiac what if

1860
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:59,040
right right right why

1861
01:12:03,590 --> 01:12:00,960
um what's your what's your theory why

1862
01:12:05,030 --> 01:12:03,600
did the Zodiac Killer stop killing

1863
01:12:06,410 --> 01:12:05,040
uh you know I think it could have been

1864
01:12:08,930 --> 01:12:06,420
like you know going back to Golden State

1865
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:08,940
killer like Jody Angelo he just stopped

1866
01:12:13,310 --> 01:12:11,520
uh he he you know they thought maybe

1867
01:12:14,750 --> 01:12:13,320
this guy's in prison or whatever but now

1868
01:12:16,970 --> 01:12:14,760
that we know that you know he was

1869
01:12:20,570 --> 01:12:16,980
discovered that he just stopped he had a

1870
01:12:22,370 --> 01:12:20,580
family he had a job and he just quit you

1871
01:12:24,050 --> 01:12:22,380
know maybe he thought that you know he

1872
01:12:26,450 --> 01:12:24,060
was just pressing his luck I think the

1873
01:12:28,550 --> 01:12:26,460
same thing happened with zodiac when his

1874
01:12:31,430 --> 01:12:28,560
last canonical victim a 29 year old cab

1875
01:12:33,410 --> 01:12:31,440
driver named Paul Stein was was uh uh

1876
01:12:35,930 --> 01:12:33,420
murdered in the Presidio Heights

1877
01:12:38,270 --> 01:12:35,940
neighborhood of San Francisco on October

1878
01:12:40,010 --> 01:12:38,280
11th to 69 very Brazen attack you know

1879
01:12:43,490 --> 01:12:40,020
the the killer gets in the back of the

1880
01:12:45,350 --> 01:12:43,500
cab and um you know tells him to to pull

1881
01:12:47,149 --> 01:12:45,360
up on a certain Street at Washington

1882
01:12:48,590 --> 01:12:47,159
Cherry Street in San Francisco and

1883
01:12:51,110 --> 01:12:48,600
shoots him in the right side of the head

1884
01:12:53,810 --> 01:12:51,120
above his ear with a nine millimeter uh

1885
01:12:55,070 --> 01:12:53,820
pistol you know just a really uh Brazen

1886
01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:55,080
attack but he almost got caught that

1887
01:12:58,970 --> 01:12:57,600
night there was a couple police uh

1888
01:13:01,430 --> 01:12:58,980
actually drove right by him and looked

1889
01:13:03,229 --> 01:13:01,440
at him and uh the only reason they they

1890
01:13:06,110 --> 01:13:03,239
didn't know it was him is because they

1891
01:13:09,110 --> 01:13:06,120
put out out through the sfpd that they

1892
01:13:10,850 --> 01:13:09,120
were looking for a a black male and not

1893
01:13:12,830 --> 01:13:10,860
a white male and it was just a some kind

1894
01:13:14,750 --> 01:13:12,840
of error or screw up but if not for that

1895
01:13:17,570 --> 01:13:14,760
he may have very well have been caught

1896
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:17,580
that night of the Paul Steins there were

1897
01:13:24,530 --> 01:13:22,320
there were uh the gunshots were heard

1898
01:13:26,810 --> 01:13:24,540
um and wasn't it around the it was

1899
01:13:28,370 --> 01:13:26,820
around the corner I could be wrong here

1900
01:13:30,410 --> 01:13:28,380
but it was around the corner from the

1901
01:13:32,689 --> 01:13:30,420
San Francisco Chronicle

1902
01:13:35,330 --> 01:13:32,699
uh no it's a little further away a

1903
01:13:37,729 --> 01:13:35,340
little further away but but it was

1904
01:13:41,270 --> 01:13:37,739
Brazen right he did it was Brazen yeah

1905
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:41,280
it was at night but it was just a very

1906
01:13:44,750 --> 01:13:42,719
Brazen attack

1907
01:13:47,030 --> 01:13:44,760
uh the only witnesses to it were were

1908
01:13:48,709 --> 01:13:47,040
three teenagers that lived across the

1909
01:13:50,990 --> 01:13:48,719
street their last name is Robbins which

1910
01:13:54,530 --> 01:13:51,000
are kind of came back uh in the Zodiac

1911
01:13:56,510 --> 01:13:54,540
news lately uh which is interesting that

1912
01:13:58,430 --> 01:13:56,520
uh the oldest one his name was Lindsay

1913
01:14:01,610 --> 01:13:58,440
Robbins I think he was 16 at the time

1914
01:14:04,610 --> 01:14:01,620
saw the perpetrator after he did it and

1915
01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:04,620
he saw him wiping the cab down

1916
01:14:10,010 --> 01:14:07,199
um obviously to hide fingerprints but

1917
01:14:12,290 --> 01:14:10,020
now according to a zodiac researcher his

1918
01:14:13,850 --> 01:14:12,300
son has come out and said that uh his

1919
01:14:15,649 --> 01:14:13,860
father told him that never tell anyone

1920
01:14:17,810 --> 01:14:15,659
this until like two years after he died

1921
01:14:19,250 --> 01:14:17,820
because Lindsey Robbins did pass away I

1922
01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:19,260
think four or five years ago he's pretty

1923
01:14:23,750 --> 01:14:21,600
young uh I think he was in his early 60s

1924
01:14:25,790 --> 01:14:23,760
I'm not sure what what happened to him

1925
01:14:27,830 --> 01:14:25,800
but his son said that his father told

1926
01:14:29,930 --> 01:14:27,840
him that that he actually went down left

1927
01:14:31,729 --> 01:14:29,940
you know the upstairs of our house and

1928
01:14:33,770 --> 01:14:31,739
went down to help Paul Stein it was

1929
01:14:35,630 --> 01:14:33,780
already dead uh but he tried to help him

1930
01:14:38,209 --> 01:14:35,640
up or something and he wound up touching

1931
01:14:40,970 --> 01:14:38,219
the cab with his own hands thus leaving

1932
01:14:42,709 --> 01:14:40,980
his own fingerprints uh on the cab but

1933
01:14:45,530 --> 01:14:42,719
he never told the police that so I guess

1934
01:14:47,810 --> 01:14:45,540
leash showed up you know ambulance

1935
01:14:50,090 --> 01:14:47,820
paramedics after he had done that then

1936
01:14:52,070 --> 01:14:50,100
he goes back to his house and keeps that

1937
01:14:53,930 --> 01:14:52,080
a secret you know so that's you know

1938
01:14:55,070 --> 01:14:53,940
something new that that happened which

1939
01:14:56,990 --> 01:14:55,080
is interesting because a lot of people

1940
01:14:58,729 --> 01:14:57,000
say there's definitely had to be zodiac

1941
01:15:00,350 --> 01:14:58,739
fingerprints on the cab well now there's

1942
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:00,360
a huge wrench in that

1943
01:15:09,830 --> 01:15:04,080
yeah for sure and uh before we move on

1944
01:15:14,270 --> 01:15:09,840
to DB Cooper uh with that night

1945
01:15:18,350 --> 01:15:14,280
um uh he they didn't know it was the

1946
01:15:20,450 --> 01:15:18,360
Zodiac Killer he told the police that he

1947
01:15:21,830 --> 01:15:20,460
did that killing and gave them the

1948
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:21,840
evidence for it

1949
01:15:26,030 --> 01:15:23,760
yeah what he did was he wanted to make

1950
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:26,040
sure he got credit for that crime that

1951
01:15:32,270 --> 01:15:28,560
they knew it was zodiac by sending in

1952
01:15:33,649 --> 01:15:32,280
three different letters that had a uh a

1953
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:33,659
piece of Paul Stein's bloody shirt

1954
01:15:38,689 --> 01:15:35,760
attached to it a swath of it he cut out

1955
01:15:40,669 --> 01:15:38,699
a a good sized piece about that big from

1956
01:15:42,649 --> 01:15:40,679
the tail end of Paul Stein's shirt that

1957
01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:42,659
was covered in blood and he cut up

1958
01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:44,400
little squares of it and he sent it in

1959
01:15:50,209 --> 01:15:48,000
uh two letters to the sfpd and uh or the

1960
01:15:51,950 --> 01:15:50,219
chronicle and then once he sent to

1961
01:15:54,110 --> 01:15:51,960
attorney Melvin belli like if you see

1962
01:15:55,430 --> 01:15:54,120
the movie Zodiac with David Fincher it

1963
01:15:56,930 --> 01:15:55,440
actually shows a piece coming out of

1964
01:15:58,729 --> 01:15:56,940
What's called the the Halloween card

1965
01:16:01,610 --> 01:15:58,739
that was sent to uh San Francisco

1966
01:16:02,630 --> 01:16:01,620
Chronicle reporter Paul Avery and uh

1967
01:16:04,490 --> 01:16:02,640
that's just a little bit of Hollywood

1968
01:16:05,810 --> 01:16:04,500
because uh you know he did send in

1969
01:16:07,970 --> 01:16:05,820
pieces of shirt but not with that

1970
01:16:12,110 --> 01:16:07,980
Infamous Halloween card

1971
01:16:15,649 --> 01:16:12,120
it's a fascinating case it still creeps

1972
01:16:20,090 --> 01:16:15,659
me out uh to this day I mean all of the

1973
01:16:22,550 --> 01:16:20,100
elements uh of it meant to terrify and

1974
01:16:25,490 --> 01:16:22,560
I've often questioned

1975
01:16:27,830 --> 01:16:25,500
um the publishing of the letters uh the

1976
01:16:30,169 --> 01:16:27,840
talking about the correspondence uh the

1977
01:16:34,910 --> 01:16:30,179
ciphers itself

1978
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:34,920
um and and uh the the the the eyewitness

1979
01:16:40,490 --> 01:16:37,920
testimony to this it seemed like we were

1980
01:16:42,830 --> 01:16:40,500
primed and ready for a bunch of CopyCat

1981
01:16:45,590 --> 01:16:42,840
killings and then you're going to you

1982
01:16:48,410 --> 01:16:45,600
know further muddy up this case and it

1983
01:16:50,330 --> 01:16:48,420
just seemed like it was handled and the

1984
01:16:53,570 --> 01:16:50,340
police the hands their hands were tied

1985
01:16:55,370 --> 01:16:53,580
for sure but uh it seemed like they just

1986
01:16:59,330 --> 01:16:55,380
handled it the wrong way

1987
01:17:02,270 --> 01:16:59,340
they did and what happened here was once

1988
01:17:04,189 --> 01:17:02,280
they heard about arthurly Allen they

1989
01:17:06,169 --> 01:17:04,199
could not get rid of him I mean they

1990
01:17:08,149 --> 01:17:06,179
were a lot of them went to their graves

1991
01:17:10,669 --> 01:17:08,159
believing it was Arthur Lee Allen so don

1992
01:17:13,310 --> 01:17:10,679
Cheney comes forward in July of 1971

1993
01:17:17,689 --> 01:17:13,320
saying hey my buddy's a zodiac he told

1994
01:17:19,130 --> 01:17:17,699
me on New Year's Day 1968 that he was

1995
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,140
going to call himself zodiac and he was

1996
01:17:22,610 --> 01:17:21,120
going to go kill couples on lovers Lanes

1997
01:17:25,189 --> 01:17:22,620
blah blah blah so if you believe Don

1998
01:17:26,750 --> 01:17:25,199
Cheney Arthur Leon has to be the Zodiac

1999
01:17:28,669 --> 01:17:26,760
because this obviously predates Lake

2000
01:17:31,610 --> 01:17:28,679
Herman Road uh that's where it all

2001
01:17:34,010 --> 01:17:31,620
starts and also remember Arthur Leon was

2002
01:17:36,649 --> 01:17:34,020
questioned in these killings before then

2003
01:17:38,750 --> 01:17:36,659
he was questioned just uh 10 days after

2004
01:17:42,350 --> 01:17:38,760
the Lake Berryessa attack by detective

2005
01:17:44,209 --> 01:17:42,360
John Lynch uh with the Napa PD of of

2006
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:44,219
possibly being involved in no one knows

2007
01:17:48,709 --> 01:17:46,560
to the stage uh that he could not

2008
01:17:50,149 --> 01:17:48,719
remember why did they questioned Alan

2009
01:17:52,430 --> 01:17:50,159
because yeah he was a creepy guy he was

2010
01:17:54,950 --> 01:17:52,440
a child molester but no one knows why

2011
01:17:56,750 --> 01:17:54,960
Alan was questioned so early on in the

2012
01:18:00,290 --> 01:17:56,760
case even before Cheney comes forward

2013
01:18:02,149 --> 01:18:00,300
with his allegations against Allen but

2014
01:18:03,830 --> 01:18:02,159
when you dig into Cheney's background he

2015
01:18:05,930 --> 01:18:03,840
has more circumstantial evidence for him

2016
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:05,940
than even Alan has on his own that's

2017
01:18:09,950 --> 01:18:08,159
what you don't expect that is this

2018
01:18:12,290 --> 01:18:09,960
called you know the surprise versus no

2019
01:18:13,430 --> 01:18:12,300
surprise principle Cheney circumstantial

2020
01:18:14,750 --> 01:18:13,440
evidence because it's still a

2021
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:14,760
circumstantial case because we don't

2022
01:18:20,209 --> 01:18:17,760
have that Smoking Gun DNA but Cheney has

2023
01:18:22,490 --> 01:18:20,219
some crazy circumstantial evidence like

2024
01:18:24,950 --> 01:18:22,500
going to the same Junior College in

2025
01:18:27,350 --> 01:18:24,960
Bakersfield California in 1952 with Paul

2026
01:18:29,630 --> 01:18:27,360
Avery the guy that made himself Famous

2027
01:18:31,610 --> 01:18:29,640
by reporting on the zodiac

2028
01:18:34,550 --> 01:18:31,620
played by Robert Downey Jr in the movie

2029
01:18:36,950 --> 01:18:34,560
Zodiac and John Cheney's tiny little

2030
01:18:39,229 --> 01:18:36,960
Junior College with Paul Avery the same

2031
01:18:41,270 --> 01:18:39,239
year where there's only 150 male

2032
01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:41,280
students think he knew him or knew of

2033
01:18:48,229 --> 01:18:44,159
him right of course he did

2034
01:18:51,410 --> 01:18:48,239
it's a crazy case and uh I I just hope

2035
01:18:54,590 --> 01:18:51,420
you know it's it's going to pop up in uh

2036
01:18:57,350 --> 01:18:54,600
uh in the headlines you know with DNA

2037
01:19:00,709 --> 01:18:57,360
that this is that this is finally solved

2038
01:19:06,189 --> 01:19:00,719
when you go back to cases like

2039
01:19:11,450 --> 01:19:06,199
um uh the ptk Killer and I remember

2040
01:19:14,270 --> 01:19:11,460
uh reading about BTK right but the case

2041
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:14,280
had gone cold right no no BTK and then

2042
01:19:21,610 --> 01:19:18,239
suddenly he's back and yeah because

2043
01:19:26,149 --> 01:19:21,620
because of himself because of himself

2044
01:19:29,270 --> 01:19:26,159
and he just it and it's it was just

2045
01:19:32,510 --> 01:19:29,280
shocking to me that some of these cases

2046
01:19:35,990 --> 01:19:32,520
like uh of course TB Cooper and and the

2047
01:19:38,630 --> 01:19:36,000
Zodiac killer that go unsolved uh the

2048
01:19:43,310 --> 01:19:38,640
BTK case

2049
01:19:47,270 --> 01:19:43,320
you know he he uh a printer at the

2050
01:19:49,850 --> 01:19:47,280
church was his downfall and yeah he he

2051
01:19:52,550 --> 01:19:49,860
sent a letter to the police yeah it was

2052
01:19:54,290 --> 01:19:52,560
on a computer disk that he he wiped out

2053
01:19:55,669 --> 01:19:54,300
or he thought he wiped out and they

2054
01:19:57,709 --> 01:19:55,679
recovered it and it was a letter from

2055
01:19:59,510 --> 01:19:57,719
his church you know where he was like

2056
01:20:01,189 --> 01:19:59,520
the head of something at his church that

2057
01:20:02,390 --> 01:20:01,199
was his downfall and it was literally a

2058
01:20:04,130 --> 01:20:02,400
Victory lap because it was on the

2059
01:20:06,110 --> 01:20:04,140
anniversary of one of his murders right

2060
01:20:08,870 --> 01:20:06,120
that he wanted to taunt the police kind

2061
01:20:11,330 --> 01:20:08,880
of like a lot like zodiac so you know

2062
01:20:12,830 --> 01:20:11,340
Dennis Rader by doing that inserted

2063
01:20:15,350 --> 01:20:12,840
himself into the case

2064
01:20:17,270 --> 01:20:15,360
by by sending that to the police so I

2065
01:20:19,850 --> 01:20:17,280
think that's what uh I think that's what

2066
01:20:22,070 --> 01:20:19,860
Don Cheney did when he accused Dr Lee

2067
01:20:23,810 --> 01:20:22,080
Allen as being the killer because his

2068
01:20:25,910 --> 01:20:23,820
goal was not to see Alan go to prison

2069
01:20:28,130 --> 01:20:25,920
for this his goal was to stay close to

2070
01:20:29,930 --> 01:20:28,140
the case he created he only wanted Alan

2071
01:20:31,729 --> 01:20:29,940
to stay on his toes he did not want Alan

2072
01:20:34,370 --> 01:20:31,739
to go to prison he wanted Allen is

2073
01:20:36,830 --> 01:20:34,380
simply a vehicle to insert himself and

2074
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:36,840
say hey I got dissolved it's my buddy

2075
01:20:40,490 --> 01:20:38,880
Arthur our It's all under the guise of

2076
01:20:44,390 --> 01:20:40,500
Arthur told me

2077
01:20:46,850 --> 01:20:44,400
yeah and and BTK Dean Raiden

2078
01:20:50,830 --> 01:20:46,860
um Dean at his church

2079
01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:50,840
right he was a local uh he was like a

2080
01:20:57,010 --> 01:20:54,000
Police Inspector right Road running

2081
01:21:00,290 --> 01:20:57,020
wrote citations right

2082
01:21:01,310 --> 01:21:00,300
Dennis I think Dennis Raider was a uh I

2083
01:21:03,709 --> 01:21:01,320
think he worked for the phone company

2084
01:21:05,870 --> 01:21:03,719
and I think that was his guys of getting

2085
01:21:07,850 --> 01:21:05,880
in these these houses and attacking

2086
01:21:10,010 --> 01:21:07,860
these women was you know I'm here to fix

2087
01:21:11,630 --> 01:21:10,020
your your uh your phone line or some or

2088
01:21:14,149 --> 01:21:11,640
something something in that capacity I

2089
01:21:16,070 --> 01:21:14,159
think yeah he had some high position at

2090
01:21:18,830 --> 01:21:16,080
his church yeah I thought he was an

2091
01:21:21,169 --> 01:21:18,840
inspector I thought he was like going

2092
01:21:23,990 --> 01:21:21,179
around writing citations for barking

2093
01:21:26,090 --> 01:21:24,000
dogs and fence he might have been in his

2094
01:21:27,649 --> 01:21:26,100
neighborhood but I think he's right he

2095
01:21:30,229 --> 01:21:27,659
works on a trade where he would have to

2096
01:21:31,490 --> 01:21:30,239
get into houses but he wouldn't he was

2097
01:21:34,850 --> 01:21:31,500
just the guy that you would never

2098
01:21:36,649 --> 01:21:34,860
suspect right yeah no not at all his his

2099
01:21:41,470 --> 01:21:36,659
daughter his own daughter had no clue

2100
01:21:45,189 --> 01:21:41,480
nobody did nobody did he he he he just

2101
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:45,199
dissolved back into society you know and

2102
01:21:51,410 --> 01:21:48,480
he was his own undoing he just he had

2103
01:21:55,189 --> 01:21:51,420
some pride in what he did he was the BTK

2104
01:21:56,930 --> 01:21:55,199
he came up with that moniker and took a

2105
01:21:58,790 --> 01:21:56,940
Victory lap and it was his undoing when

2106
01:22:00,770 --> 01:21:58,800
they took that you know I think it was

2107
01:22:03,050 --> 01:22:00,780
that old style computer discount you

2108
01:22:04,790 --> 01:22:03,060
know floppy disk yeah and he thought he

2109
01:22:05,990 --> 01:22:04,800
wiped it out and that's when they were

2110
01:22:08,270 --> 01:22:06,000
able to recover it and found that letter

2111
01:22:11,270 --> 01:22:08,280
from the church now here's the thing if

2112
01:22:14,830 --> 01:22:11,280
you're going to be an OG serial killer

2113
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:14,840
don't name yourself see that yeah

2114
01:22:20,870 --> 01:22:18,480
like the Zodiac kid yeah yeah you you no

2115
01:22:23,270 --> 01:22:20,880
let us uh give you the name you can't

2116
01:22:26,450 --> 01:22:23,280
call yourself BTK yeah like Golden State

2117
01:22:31,010 --> 01:22:26,460
not go right exactly

2118
01:22:33,350 --> 01:22:31,020
um DB Cooper now um strangely enough uh

2119
01:22:36,830 --> 01:22:33,360
with DB

2120
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:36,840
um the real DB which that's not his name

2121
01:22:42,649 --> 01:22:39,360
but anyway the real DB

2122
01:22:44,930 --> 01:22:42,659
you would think would have bragged or

2123
01:22:46,189 --> 01:22:44,940
would have done something to reveal

2124
01:22:48,770 --> 01:22:46,199
himself

2125
01:22:50,030 --> 01:22:48,780
do you think he got away with it

2126
01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:50,040
yes

2127
01:23:00,830 --> 01:22:56,960
he is I I know who I like

2128
01:23:02,570 --> 01:23:00,840
uh you know I uh that's all I know all

2129
01:23:04,850 --> 01:23:02,580
these suspects backward forward hung

2130
01:23:06,669 --> 01:23:04,860
upside down I know you do is he still

2131
01:23:11,689 --> 01:23:06,679
alive no

2132
01:23:14,990 --> 01:23:11,699
oh oh oh now we're getting good okay all

2133
01:23:17,450 --> 01:23:15,000
right how many how many DBS just give me

2134
01:23:18,770 --> 01:23:17,460
a round number how many DB Coopers uh

2135
01:23:21,770 --> 01:23:18,780
are on that list

2136
01:23:26,750 --> 01:23:21,780
wow I mean they I think even the FBI had

2137
01:23:28,970 --> 01:23:26,760
over a thousand suspects over a thousand

2138
01:23:32,330 --> 01:23:28,980
and it would now um we were talking

2139
01:23:35,330 --> 01:23:32,340
about bungled evidence

2140
01:23:37,910 --> 01:23:35,340
um in the DB Cooper case which

2141
01:23:40,189 --> 01:23:37,920
um you know it's like I don't want to

2142
01:23:43,370 --> 01:23:40,199
call the FBI Keystone Cops but in this

2143
01:23:49,070 --> 01:23:43,380
case I think they they've kind of asked

2144
01:23:52,010 --> 01:23:49,080
for it but he did here is here's for me

2145
01:23:54,350 --> 01:23:52,020
and I want to hear from you but for me

2146
01:23:57,709 --> 01:23:54,360
the one thing where if you're gonna do a

2147
01:24:02,470 --> 01:23:57,719
a a a face slap right a face palm

2148
01:24:08,450 --> 01:24:05,390
is that your number one number one

2149
01:24:10,550 --> 01:24:08,460
number one numbers don't lose them the

2150
01:24:12,310 --> 01:24:10,560
FBI does not discard evidence like that

2151
01:24:16,189 --> 01:24:12,320
okay

2152
01:24:19,850 --> 01:24:16,199
tell everybody see now back then all

2153
01:24:22,610 --> 01:24:19,860
right back then uh for you young kids

2154
01:24:24,770 --> 01:24:22,620
out there I know this sounds crazy but

2155
01:24:29,209 --> 01:24:24,780
you could smoke on planes and not only

2156
01:24:32,570 --> 01:24:29,219
that you had an ashtray built into your

2157
01:24:36,410 --> 01:24:32,580
armrest and you would flip it open

2158
01:24:38,689 --> 01:24:36,420
you'd puff your eat right right and in

2159
01:24:42,290 --> 01:24:38,699
your arm rest I know that sounds crazy

2160
01:24:44,810 --> 01:24:42,300
today but that was life right that was

2161
01:24:47,689 --> 01:24:44,820
life in the 60s and 70s 80s probably

2162
01:24:50,630 --> 01:24:47,699
still smoke on planes in the 90s uh as

2163
01:24:53,149 --> 01:24:50,640
far as I know but anyway that's what DB

2164
01:24:55,610 --> 01:24:53,159
Cooper was doing DB sitting in the back

2165
01:24:57,350 --> 01:24:55,620
of the plane and he's puffing on his paw

2166
01:25:00,649 --> 01:24:57,360
malls or whatever they he was smoking

2167
01:25:03,470 --> 01:25:00,659
rally filter tip that's it rally filter

2168
01:25:05,689 --> 01:25:03,480
tip and he's put

2169
01:25:08,870 --> 01:25:05,699
cigarettes out

2170
01:25:11,270 --> 01:25:08,880
stray what happened to those cigarette

2171
01:25:13,010 --> 01:25:11,280
butts no one knows they were there was

2172
01:25:15,830 --> 01:25:13,020
eight of them eight of them we smoked

2173
01:25:17,630 --> 01:25:15,840
eight Raleigh filter tip cigarettes the

2174
01:25:19,070 --> 01:25:17,640
FBI did collect them and had them for a

2175
01:25:21,410 --> 01:25:19,080
while and at some point they just go

2176
01:25:22,910 --> 01:25:21,420
missing either from the field office in

2177
01:25:24,790 --> 01:25:22,920
Seattle at some point they were rumored

2178
01:25:28,070 --> 01:25:24,800
to have been in the Vegas FBI office

2179
01:25:30,410 --> 01:25:28,080
then maybe at Quantico but they're but

2180
01:25:32,450 --> 01:25:30,420
the the the line on it now is they've

2181
01:25:33,830 --> 01:25:32,460
said they're gone they were discarded we

2182
01:25:37,430 --> 01:25:33,840
don't know when or where but they're

2183
01:25:40,130 --> 01:25:37,440
gone okay now kind of fishy yeah I'm

2184
01:25:41,450 --> 01:25:40,140
gonna exactly I'm gonna ask you the the

2185
01:25:42,830 --> 01:25:41,460
million dollar

2186
01:25:50,630 --> 01:25:42,840
how

2187
01:25:55,010 --> 01:25:50,640
possible in a case like this hijacking

2188
01:25:57,169 --> 01:25:55,020
parachutes uh uh Ransom money the whole

2189
01:26:00,530 --> 01:25:57,179
thing is involved here kidnapping

2190
01:26:03,830 --> 01:26:00,540
hijacking and and you've got cigarette

2191
01:26:06,770 --> 01:26:03,840
butts and you lose the how is that

2192
01:26:08,689 --> 01:26:06,780
possible how they they wanted him to be

2193
01:26:10,910 --> 01:26:08,699
in my opinion I I gotta I don't go

2194
01:26:13,550 --> 01:26:10,920
conspiracy on everything I don't but

2195
01:26:16,430 --> 01:26:13,560
this case I do because you just can't

2196
01:26:19,010 --> 01:26:16,440
explain it you you just can't the FBI

2197
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:19,020
does not lose evidence now granted in

2198
01:26:23,870 --> 01:26:21,600
1971 no one ever heard of DNA or being

2199
01:26:26,270 --> 01:26:23,880
able to trace somebody from the the

2200
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:26,280
cigarette that they smoked but let's say

2201
01:26:28,970 --> 01:26:27,600
that they found a really good candidate

2202
01:26:32,090 --> 01:26:28,980
and they held him in court and they said

2203
01:26:33,709 --> 01:26:32,100
uh Mr Jones we're told by your wife that

2204
01:26:37,669 --> 01:26:33,719
you're an avid smoker of Raleigh filter

2205
01:26:39,890 --> 01:26:37,679
tips is that true uh yeah well you know

2206
01:26:42,350 --> 01:26:39,900
well bringing the cigarettes now you

2207
01:26:43,970 --> 01:26:42,360
have to you have to have that for that

2208
01:26:45,649 --> 01:26:43,980
um they just don't get rid of evidence

2209
01:26:47,169 --> 01:26:45,659
like that recently the case that my

2210
01:26:49,550 --> 01:26:47,179
friend told me about up in Rhode Island

2211
01:26:50,930 --> 01:26:49,560
they uh there was a lady that was raped

2212
01:26:53,629 --> 01:26:50,940
and murdered in the same year as DB

2213
01:26:55,250 --> 01:26:53,639
Cooper 1971 in the little small town in

2214
01:26:57,290 --> 01:26:55,260
Rhode Island the police managed to keep

2215
01:26:58,930 --> 01:26:57,300
a cigarette that the assailant smoked

2216
01:27:01,910 --> 01:26:58,940
just in case for whatever in the future

2217
01:27:03,830 --> 01:27:01,920
and sure enough like just months ago

2218
01:27:06,050 --> 01:27:03,840
they got DNA off of that cigarette and

2219
01:27:07,610 --> 01:27:06,060
found the guy that murdered the lady who

2220
01:27:09,290 --> 01:27:07,620
was uh living in the same apartment

2221
01:27:11,390 --> 01:27:09,300
complex he had been in a fight with his

2222
01:27:13,070 --> 01:27:11,400
wife uh he was all mad and he running

2223
01:27:15,110 --> 01:27:13,080
ran into this single lady raped and

2224
01:27:16,910 --> 01:27:15,120
murdered her and unfortunately he died

2225
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:16,920
before he could face justice but he was

2226
01:27:20,990 --> 01:27:19,199
uh they found out who he was from a

2227
01:27:23,810 --> 01:27:21,000
cigarette discarded at the crime scene

2228
01:27:25,850 --> 01:27:23,820
in 1971. but the Rhode Island people can

2229
01:27:27,950 --> 01:27:25,860
keep it but the FBI can't keep eight of

2230
01:27:33,229 --> 01:27:27,960
them in the the only unsolved hijacking

2231
01:27:35,750 --> 01:27:33,239
in American history makes you wonder now

2232
01:27:39,010 --> 01:27:35,760
um I I understand the conspiracy side of

2233
01:27:41,930 --> 01:27:39,020
this uh which is extraordinary

2234
01:27:44,270 --> 01:27:41,940
it seems that

2235
01:27:47,510 --> 01:27:44,280
um and I've watched the FBI's press

2236
01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:47,520
conferences on this case like you have

2237
01:27:51,590 --> 01:27:49,440
um uh some of them pretty recent

2238
01:27:55,129 --> 01:27:51,600
actually

2239
01:27:58,450 --> 01:27:55,139
um that you would have the evidence in

2240
01:28:02,149 --> 01:27:58,460
this case under Fort Knox lock and key

2241
01:28:04,490 --> 01:28:02,159
and they're they're really nothing else

2242
01:28:07,250 --> 01:28:04,500
should be accepted in this case right

2243
01:28:09,590 --> 01:28:07,260
nothing I mean there's supposedly a hair

2244
01:28:11,330 --> 01:28:09,600
that was recovered from the back of the

2245
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:11,340
seat rest in the the seat that Cooper

2246
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:13,199
was sitting in and it was put on a hair

2247
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:15,840
on a on a slide you know like a a lab

2248
01:28:19,430 --> 01:28:17,280
sliding glass you know the little glass

2249
01:28:21,830 --> 01:28:19,440
thing and marked and labeled and that

2250
01:28:23,570 --> 01:28:21,840
was supposedly at FBI headquarters or

2251
01:28:25,610 --> 01:28:23,580
whatever well guess what that's gone

2252
01:28:28,250 --> 01:28:25,620
missing now no one knows where the hair

2253
01:28:30,229 --> 01:28:28,260
slide is that came from the headrest so

2254
01:28:33,830 --> 01:28:30,239
add that to the cigarette butts right

2255
01:28:35,750 --> 01:28:33,840
right okay so let's back up

2256
01:28:37,729 --> 01:28:35,760
um uh I know we got ahead of our skis

2257
01:28:39,649 --> 01:28:37,739
but that cigarette butt thing man it's

2258
01:28:41,990 --> 01:28:39,659
just it just bothers me it just doesn't

2259
01:28:43,490 --> 01:28:42,000
make any sense it doesn't they don't get

2260
01:28:45,649 --> 01:28:43,500
rid of evidence like that they just

2261
01:28:48,290 --> 01:28:45,659
don't they just don't they just don't so

2262
01:28:49,729 --> 01:28:48,300
now let's back up so the plane gets

2263
01:28:51,470 --> 01:28:49,739
hijacked

2264
01:28:55,310 --> 01:28:51,480
um uh

2265
01:28:57,050 --> 01:28:55,320
uh D.B Cooper was something that

2266
01:28:58,970 --> 01:28:57,060
happened in the media and that was a

2267
01:29:01,490 --> 01:28:58,980
misprint and and so misprint yeah

2268
01:29:04,610 --> 01:29:01,500
somebody found a DB Cooper that lived

2269
01:29:06,410 --> 01:29:04,620
near somewhere Portland or whatever and

2270
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:06,420
and they and the AP picked it up where

2271
01:29:10,430 --> 01:29:08,400
they said we're looking into this DB

2272
01:29:12,290 --> 01:29:10,440
Cooper guy and there actually was a DB

2273
01:29:14,270 --> 01:29:12,300
Cooper uh that they were looking into

2274
01:29:15,950 --> 01:29:14,280
and they went to his house and you know

2275
01:29:17,570 --> 01:29:15,960
he quickly figured out he wasn't the guy

2276
01:29:19,310 --> 01:29:17,580
I think he might have even been a small

2277
01:29:21,350 --> 01:29:19,320
time criminal but of course the name

2278
01:29:23,870 --> 01:29:21,360
that the man gave when he bought a 20

2279
01:29:25,970 --> 01:29:23,880
ticket at Portland International we go

2280
01:29:28,430 --> 01:29:25,980
to Seattle gave his name is Dan Cooper

2281
01:29:30,530 --> 01:29:28,440
of course uh so the DB was just a media

2282
01:29:32,350 --> 01:29:30,540
screw-up that got picked up and uh

2283
01:29:36,050 --> 01:29:32,360
became Legend

2284
01:29:40,850 --> 01:29:36,060
so uh playing gets hijacked plane lands

2285
01:29:43,310 --> 01:29:40,860
uh he demands parachute uh parachutes

2286
01:29:46,010 --> 01:29:43,320
um and cash that gets delivered to the

2287
01:29:48,709 --> 01:29:46,020
plane the passengers depart he's got the

2288
01:29:50,930 --> 01:29:48,719
crew yeah and the plane takes off

2289
01:29:52,910 --> 01:29:50,940
basically

2290
01:29:56,149 --> 01:29:52,920
um in a basic sense because we all know

2291
01:30:00,590 --> 01:29:56,159
the story right okay now the the plane

2292
01:30:03,530 --> 01:30:00,600
is in the air we've got uh dummy

2293
01:30:05,930 --> 01:30:03,540
parachutes right we've got one

2294
01:30:07,850 --> 01:30:05,940
um who packed the shoots where did the

2295
01:30:10,070 --> 01:30:07,860
parachutes come from you know the whole

2296
01:30:11,870 --> 01:30:10,080
parachute thing is another reason this

2297
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:11,880
case is upside down because there's not

2298
01:30:15,890 --> 01:30:14,159
even a whole lot of agreement there a

2299
01:30:18,770 --> 01:30:15,900
guy named Earl Cossey said that he was

2300
01:30:21,770 --> 01:30:18,780
the Packer of them and that he uh

2301
01:30:23,090 --> 01:30:21,780
delivered them to Seatac Airport and

2302
01:30:25,370 --> 01:30:23,100
another guy named Norman Hayden with

2303
01:30:28,189 --> 01:30:25,380
ishika Sky Sports said no they're my

2304
01:30:29,990 --> 01:30:28,199
parachute so it's it's it's still to

2305
01:30:32,090 --> 01:30:30,000
this day convoluted because they both

2306
01:30:34,129 --> 01:30:32,100
dispute what the other said and I don't

2307
01:30:37,070 --> 01:30:34,139
know Smith interviewed them both and and

2308
01:30:39,290 --> 01:30:37,080
they both give conflicting stories of

2309
01:30:41,930 --> 01:30:39,300
course Cooper asked for two front shoots

2310
01:30:43,610 --> 01:30:41,940
and two back shoots uh which is you know

2311
01:30:45,110 --> 01:30:43,620
that's kind of a layman term as you know

2312
01:30:48,590 --> 01:30:45,120
skydiver wouldn't use that shoot they'd

2313
01:30:50,209 --> 01:30:48,600
call them uh reserves or Mains uh he

2314
01:30:51,770 --> 01:30:50,219
asked for for four which is smart

2315
01:30:53,030 --> 01:30:51,780
because it made him you know them think

2316
01:30:55,490 --> 01:30:53,040
that he was going to take a hostage with

2317
01:30:57,290 --> 01:30:55,500
him of course uh the the shoot that was

2318
01:30:59,930 --> 01:30:57,300
supposedly someone said is something

2319
01:31:01,610 --> 01:30:59,940
that came from uh Earl Cossey who said

2320
01:31:03,410 --> 01:31:01,620
it was one of his ground training shoots

2321
01:31:05,030 --> 01:31:03,420
and then it was no good and some people

2322
01:31:08,149 --> 01:31:05,040
took that to make it believe that dick

2323
01:31:09,530 --> 01:31:08,159
Cooper was an experienced skydiver well

2324
01:31:11,810 --> 01:31:09,540
that that wouldn't have mattered anyway

2325
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:11,820
because the back shoots had no d-rings

2326
01:31:17,870 --> 01:31:14,159
on them where the reserve shoots could

2327
01:31:20,149 --> 01:31:17,880
hook onto so that was all mute anyway

2328
01:31:23,270 --> 01:31:20,159
you know so it really didn't matter but

2329
01:31:25,669 --> 01:31:23,280
they're still not complete Clarity on

2330
01:31:28,310 --> 01:31:25,679
who brought them were they causes were

2331
01:31:31,250 --> 01:31:28,320
they uh Norm Hayden's you know we don't

2332
01:31:32,870 --> 01:31:31,260
know Cosi was kind of the FBI guy who

2333
01:31:34,550 --> 01:31:32,880
you know kind of led the narrative on

2334
01:31:38,810 --> 01:31:34,560
you know was Cooper experienced or not

2335
01:31:41,330 --> 01:31:38,820
he was mysteriously murdered in 2013. uh

2336
01:31:43,910 --> 01:31:41,340
in Washington in his driveway and it uh

2337
01:31:45,709 --> 01:31:43,920
nothing was stolen really strange and

2338
01:31:47,689 --> 01:31:45,719
days after the murder someone mailed

2339
01:31:50,750 --> 01:31:47,699
back not his wallet but the contents of

2340
01:31:52,310 --> 01:31:50,760
his wallet to his family anonymously so

2341
01:31:54,410 --> 01:31:52,320
just another one of those weird Cooper

2342
01:31:56,149 --> 01:31:54,420
things where you know the guy that said

2343
01:31:59,570 --> 01:31:56,159
he supplied the parachutes was murdered

2344
01:32:01,850 --> 01:31:59,580
mysteriously in 2013. and and so and

2345
01:32:04,250 --> 01:32:01,860
then the confusion of these shoots I

2346
01:32:06,229 --> 01:32:04,260
want to stay a little bit on the shoots

2347
01:32:08,810 --> 01:32:06,239
there's so much more to discuss in this

2348
01:32:11,870 --> 01:32:08,820
case but in the confusion of these

2349
01:32:14,030 --> 01:32:11,880
shoots apparently

2350
01:32:17,750 --> 01:32:14,040
um you know how the shoots were packed

2351
01:32:20,950 --> 01:32:17,760
and even if these shoots would work is

2352
01:32:26,330 --> 01:32:20,960
is a point of contention but apparently

2353
01:32:28,430 --> 01:32:26,340
uh Cooper uh picked the right shoot and

2354
01:32:30,830 --> 01:32:28,440
and and jumped out of the plane with the

2355
01:32:32,870 --> 01:32:30,840
right one of the four correct

2356
01:32:34,250 --> 01:32:32,880
yeah I mean this or yeah that was

2357
01:32:35,750 --> 01:32:34,260
definitely the one he picked was usable

2358
01:32:38,030 --> 01:32:35,760
it was a it was a back you know

2359
01:32:39,470 --> 01:32:38,040
parachute on his back uh obviously

2360
01:32:40,610 --> 01:32:39,480
there's no reserves because there's no

2361
01:32:42,709 --> 01:32:40,620
way to hook it you know they have to

2362
01:32:45,410 --> 01:32:42,719
hook to your your main uh there was no

2363
01:32:46,610 --> 01:32:45,420
rings for that so uh what he did is the

2364
01:32:48,110 --> 01:32:46,620
one thing that they didn't get right

2365
01:32:49,610 --> 01:32:48,120
when his demands were two hundred

2366
01:32:51,590 --> 01:32:49,620
thousand dollars in cash before

2367
01:32:53,149 --> 01:32:51,600
parachutes but also he demanded that

2368
01:32:55,070 --> 01:32:53,159
they bring the money to him in a

2369
01:32:56,990 --> 01:32:55,080
knapsack they did not do that they

2370
01:32:59,270 --> 01:32:57,000
brought it to him in a canvas Bank bag

2371
01:33:01,010 --> 01:32:59,280
so he was pretty perturbed about that so

2372
01:33:02,629 --> 01:33:01,020
he had to improvise on the spot so what

2373
01:33:04,669 --> 01:33:02,639
he did was use one of the parachutes and

2374
01:33:06,410 --> 01:33:04,679
he cut the Shroud lines and he started

2375
01:33:08,030 --> 01:33:06,420
wrapping around his body you know he

2376
01:33:09,229 --> 01:33:08,040
took a pocket knife out and cut the

2377
01:33:11,030 --> 01:33:09,239
Shroud line so one of the shoots he

2378
01:33:12,590 --> 01:33:11,040
wasn't going to use and tied that money

2379
01:33:14,750 --> 01:33:12,600
back around him

2380
01:33:18,050 --> 01:33:14,760
right and

2381
01:33:20,930 --> 01:33:18,060
um and the indication is because he knew

2382
01:33:23,570 --> 01:33:20,940
that there was a lack of d-rings that he

2383
01:33:26,209 --> 01:33:23,580
didn't have a backup shoot so he must

2384
01:33:29,209 --> 01:33:26,219
have been experienced he must have been

2385
01:33:31,370 --> 01:33:29,219
a paratrooper which pointed uh you know

2386
01:33:33,669 --> 01:33:31,380
to the military in some kind of training

2387
01:33:36,470 --> 01:33:33,679
in this yeah I mean there's there's

2388
01:33:38,990 --> 01:33:36,480
arguments made both ways I know some

2389
01:33:40,970 --> 01:33:39,000
people now like I guess so-called

2390
01:33:42,890 --> 01:33:40,980
experts are like well we don't think he

2391
01:33:44,149 --> 01:33:42,900
was experienced because any experienced

2392
01:33:45,410 --> 01:33:44,159
skydiver would have brought their own

2393
01:33:48,189 --> 01:33:45,420
rig

2394
01:33:50,689 --> 01:33:48,199
um which is kind of true but you know

2395
01:33:53,390 --> 01:33:50,699
the Daredevil doesn't care especially a

2396
01:33:55,729 --> 01:33:53,400
military guy you know they had their own

2397
01:33:58,430 --> 01:33:55,739
parachutes but I think that you know

2398
01:34:00,169 --> 01:33:58,440
knowing that he might take a hostage to

2399
01:34:02,209 --> 01:34:00,179
Daredevil anyway he was not going to

2400
01:34:03,830 --> 01:34:02,219
really lug around his own parachute of

2401
01:34:05,570 --> 01:34:03,840
course Richard Floyd McCoy brought his

2402
01:34:07,970 --> 01:34:05,580
own parachute for his hijacking who's a

2403
01:34:10,010 --> 01:34:07,980
Cooper suspect of course uh and it

2404
01:34:11,689 --> 01:34:10,020
actually deployed on the plane before he

2405
01:34:13,790 --> 01:34:11,699
could even use it it knocked out one of

2406
01:34:16,149 --> 01:34:13,800
the stewardesses you know he actually

2407
01:34:18,410 --> 01:34:16,159
ripcord got tugged or something and it

2408
01:34:20,750 --> 01:34:18,420
popped out of the container and knocked

2409
01:34:22,490 --> 01:34:20,760
down one of the the the stewardesses on

2410
01:34:24,229 --> 01:34:22,500
his flight and then he had to wind up

2411
01:34:26,270 --> 01:34:24,239
taking one of the ones that he that he

2412
01:34:27,890 --> 01:34:26,280
brought him you know they brought him so

2413
01:34:29,750 --> 01:34:27,900
you know there's arguments both ways was

2414
01:34:31,490 --> 01:34:29,760
he experienced or what he or was he not

2415
01:34:32,930 --> 01:34:31,500
you know one of them that they claimed

2416
01:34:35,629 --> 01:34:32,940
Point against it is was he didn't bring

2417
01:34:37,010 --> 01:34:35,639
his own parachute and that uh you know

2418
01:34:37,910 --> 01:34:37,020
McCoy did it because he was afraid they

2419
01:34:39,950 --> 01:34:37,920
were going to be tracked you know

2420
01:34:41,930 --> 01:34:39,960
they're going to put trackers in it uh

2421
01:34:44,090 --> 01:34:41,940
my my contention is that Cooper was

2422
01:34:46,010 --> 01:34:44,100
jumping into the thickness of uh the

2423
01:34:48,410 --> 01:34:46,020
Pacific Northwest you know north of

2424
01:34:50,030 --> 01:34:48,420
Portland and uh you know Vancouver

2425
01:34:51,410 --> 01:34:50,040
Washington it's so dense by the time

2426
01:34:53,810 --> 01:34:51,420
they could attract that shoot he's long

2427
01:34:55,910 --> 01:34:53,820
gone in my opinion so there's things

2428
01:34:57,649 --> 01:34:55,920
before and against it of course uh right

2429
01:34:58,970 --> 01:34:57,659
when they brought the pair of Tina mukla

2430
01:35:00,649 --> 01:34:58,980
brought the parachutes to him she said

2431
01:35:02,450 --> 01:35:00,659
hey here's the instruction cards and he

2432
01:35:03,890 --> 01:35:02,460
said I won't need that and she said he

2433
01:35:09,010 --> 01:35:03,900
put the rig on like he knew what he was

2434
01:35:15,110 --> 01:35:12,290
me you hand me a parachute

2435
01:35:17,270 --> 01:35:15,120
I'm not going to survive I won't know

2436
01:35:19,310 --> 01:35:17,280
what to do with it that's not going to

2437
01:35:22,729 --> 01:35:19,320
be a good day in my world

2438
01:35:24,530 --> 01:35:22,739
um but here's the next part

2439
01:35:28,910 --> 01:35:24,540
um he jumps out of the back of the plane

2440
01:35:30,890 --> 01:35:28,920
now that particular plan again you gotta

2441
01:35:34,610 --> 01:35:30,900
imagine this people

2442
01:35:37,850 --> 01:35:34,620
um there was a a Stairway that deployed

2443
01:35:40,070 --> 01:35:37,860
off of the back of the plane you would

2444
01:35:43,250 --> 01:35:40,080
have to know that's right underneath the

2445
01:35:45,709 --> 01:35:43,260
rear wing right this there was steps

2446
01:35:48,530 --> 01:35:45,719
that would come down half staircase a

2447
01:35:50,570 --> 01:35:48,540
rare staircase and uh and I remember

2448
01:35:53,689 --> 01:35:50,580
those when I was a kid but here's the

2449
01:35:57,110 --> 01:35:53,699
thing you would have to know

2450
01:35:59,390 --> 01:35:57,120
how to deploy that you would have to

2451
01:36:04,490 --> 01:35:59,400
know a that it was there and B how to to

2452
01:36:08,810 --> 01:36:04,500
deploy it and the crew would know if it

2453
01:36:12,770 --> 01:36:08,820
was locked or not and how would he have

2454
01:36:15,830 --> 01:36:12,780
known that he had access to that unless

2455
01:36:18,649 --> 01:36:15,840
he was an employee of uh an airplane

2456
01:36:20,990 --> 01:36:18,659
company or he knew something about that

2457
01:36:23,570 --> 01:36:21,000
they had done it in Vietnam or uh over

2458
01:36:25,669 --> 01:36:23,580
over Cambodia which had been done uh

2459
01:36:27,950 --> 01:36:25,679
where America had did some drops over

2460
01:36:30,649 --> 01:36:27,960
Thailand with that with that plane

2461
01:36:32,149 --> 01:36:30,659
testing that out uh in most people did

2462
01:36:33,950 --> 01:36:32,159
not know that but people worked at

2463
01:36:36,350 --> 01:36:33,960
Boeing didn't know that uh the main

2464
01:36:38,750 --> 01:36:36,360
thing did it that that he knew was that

2465
01:36:41,209 --> 01:36:38,760
the plane could take off with that stare

2466
01:36:42,709 --> 01:36:41,219
down it could take off with the stare

2467
01:36:44,750 --> 01:36:42,719
down and that's what Cooper wanted of

2468
01:36:47,149 --> 01:36:44,760
course because he knows he's going to

2469
01:36:49,550 --> 01:36:47,159
jump once it's it's airborne and he's

2470
01:36:50,930 --> 01:36:49,560
you know and if it's not he's going to

2471
01:36:53,629 --> 01:36:50,940
have to continue with getting it down in

2472
01:36:55,790 --> 01:36:53,639
flight so he actually was was arguing

2473
01:36:57,970 --> 01:36:55,800
with the flight crew who's getting

2474
01:37:00,830 --> 01:36:57,980
advice you know from the airline

2475
01:37:02,209 --> 01:37:00,840
Northwest Orient about you know can we

2476
01:37:03,530 --> 01:37:02,219
do this or not and the pilots thought

2477
01:37:05,930 --> 01:37:03,540
that they would pick the plane apart so

2478
01:37:08,330 --> 01:37:05,940
they absolutely refused so Cooper

2479
01:37:10,490 --> 01:37:08,340
relented said okay go ahead uh take off

2480
01:37:12,350 --> 01:37:10,500
with the stairs up but he wanted him to

2481
01:37:13,970 --> 01:37:12,360
take off with it down course because if

2482
01:37:16,490 --> 01:37:13,980
those stairs don't drop when they're in

2483
01:37:19,490 --> 01:37:16,500
Flight he's in a jail cell up there and

2484
01:37:21,350 --> 01:37:19,500
he knew it yeah for sure for sure now

2485
01:37:22,729 --> 01:37:21,360
let's uh we're gonna cut some Corners

2486
01:37:25,129 --> 01:37:22,739
here

2487
01:37:27,169 --> 01:37:25,139
um uh we might run into a little

2488
01:37:29,510 --> 01:37:27,179
overtime tonight can I keep you maybe

2489
01:37:32,229 --> 01:37:29,520
five ten minutes after absolutely okay

2490
01:37:33,770 --> 01:37:32,239
okay let's let's let's get rolling here

2491
01:37:38,209 --> 01:37:33,780
so

2492
01:37:40,610 --> 01:37:38,219
um uh as I alluded to earlier

2493
01:37:43,189 --> 01:37:40,620
um with all of the radar this is a this

2494
01:37:45,649 --> 01:37:43,199
is a Boeing 727 this is a modern

2495
01:37:48,290 --> 01:37:45,659
aircraft with everything that we have

2496
01:37:50,629 --> 01:37:48,300
with technology today and flight uh

2497
01:37:52,850 --> 01:37:50,639
control and tracking that's one thing

2498
01:37:56,209 --> 01:37:52,860
back then we did have radar we had a

2499
01:37:59,090 --> 01:37:56,219
basic idea of what was going on but uh

2500
01:38:01,790 --> 01:37:59,100
he has them lower the altitude right

2501
01:38:02,810 --> 01:38:01,800
very curious and then he knew the

2502
01:38:06,169 --> 01:38:02,820
settings

2503
01:38:08,030 --> 01:38:06,179
yep yep yep and and uh uh slowed the

2504
01:38:12,590 --> 01:38:08,040
plane down he jumps

2505
01:38:16,669 --> 01:38:12,600
they never found if even if he died

2506
01:38:18,770 --> 01:38:16,679
they never found his parachute how never

2507
01:38:21,830 --> 01:38:18,780
found the parachute in in the United

2508
01:38:23,090 --> 01:38:21,840
States right in the continental United

2509
01:38:27,110 --> 01:38:23,100
States

2510
01:38:29,030 --> 01:38:27,120
uh over a populated area now granted

2511
01:38:30,290 --> 01:38:29,040
it's the Pacific Northwest but we're

2512
01:38:33,410 --> 01:38:30,300
talking about Seattle we're talking

2513
01:38:36,410 --> 01:38:33,420
about Portland uh we can even mention if

2514
01:38:38,870 --> 01:38:36,420
you want to Reno and Tahoe and and other

2515
01:38:41,750 --> 01:38:38,880
areas it's not like this is no man's

2516
01:38:43,370 --> 01:38:41,760
land but it's not that's so yeah it's

2517
01:38:45,530 --> 01:38:43,380
not no man's land they make it out to be

2518
01:38:48,110 --> 01:38:45,540
but it's really not it's not it's not

2519
01:38:51,050 --> 01:38:48,120
and and but they never found his

2520
01:38:53,030 --> 01:38:51,060
parachute which does that tell you that

2521
01:38:55,430 --> 01:38:53,040
he survived that he collected his shoot

2522
01:38:57,830 --> 01:38:55,440
and then met somebody in a car and took

2523
01:38:58,850 --> 01:38:57,840
off running I don't know but but do you

2524
01:39:01,610 --> 01:38:58,860
think I think they would have found it

2525
01:39:04,370 --> 01:39:01,620
by now all the hunters over 50 years of

2526
01:39:06,709 --> 01:39:04,380
hunters and uh people look you know they

2527
01:39:09,229 --> 01:39:06,719
did find they did find one parachute uh

2528
01:39:10,729 --> 01:39:09,239
I think in Amboy Washington it's called

2529
01:39:12,590 --> 01:39:10,739
the Amboy shoot but it was determined

2530
01:39:14,270 --> 01:39:12,600
not to be the right color of the one

2531
01:39:17,930 --> 01:39:14,280
that Cooper took which was a Navy

2532
01:39:20,090 --> 01:39:17,940
backpack with a I think a C9 canopy uh

2533
01:39:21,770 --> 01:39:20,100
military style parachute but they they

2534
01:39:24,110 --> 01:39:21,780
deemed it that wasn't it but they never

2535
01:39:25,729 --> 01:39:24,120
found uh the parachute they never found

2536
01:39:27,110 --> 01:39:25,739
the body you know a lot of people think

2537
01:39:29,149 --> 01:39:27,120
that he just landed in the Columbia

2538
01:39:30,709 --> 01:39:29,159
River and froze to death uh that he was

2539
01:39:32,149 --> 01:39:30,719
a no pool you know he never opened up a

2540
01:39:34,550 --> 01:39:32,159
shoot he just that's why they didn't

2541
01:39:36,310 --> 01:39:34,560
find it it was a no pull uh he crashes

2542
01:39:38,870 --> 01:39:36,320
into the Columbia freezes to death

2543
01:39:41,870 --> 01:39:38,880
hypothermia it drags him out you know

2544
01:39:45,229 --> 01:39:41,880
wherever to the to this to the ocean

2545
01:39:51,350 --> 01:39:47,810
or he just got away with it or he just

2546
01:39:55,970 --> 01:39:51,360
got away with it if okay so

2547
01:39:58,370 --> 01:39:55,980
um in 1980 uh a kid hanging out on the

2548
01:39:59,689 --> 01:39:58,380
Columbia River playing in the sand right

2549
01:40:02,689 --> 01:39:59,699
literally

2550
01:40:04,250 --> 01:40:02,699
uh it comes across I think five thousand

2551
01:40:08,390 --> 01:40:04,260
dollars

2552
01:40:10,129 --> 01:40:08,400
um uh heavily deteriorated but uh serial

2553
01:40:12,770 --> 01:40:10,139
numbers are there partial serial numbers

2554
01:40:16,970 --> 01:40:12,780
turns out to be DB Cooper's uh some of

2555
01:40:19,310 --> 01:40:16,980
DB Cooper's money all right now A lot

2556
01:40:21,350 --> 01:40:19,320
has been placed around this with

2557
01:40:23,870 --> 01:40:21,360
different people and different suspects

2558
01:40:26,810 --> 01:40:23,880
and knowledge and and and and and so

2559
01:40:28,729 --> 01:40:26,820
forth do you think that DB buried the

2560
01:40:31,430 --> 01:40:28,739
money there or do you think it it

2561
01:40:34,250 --> 01:40:31,440
floated there naturally and got covered

2562
01:40:36,590 --> 01:40:34,260
in sand over time I think it was planted

2563
01:40:39,530 --> 01:40:36,600
I really do you know I know some people

2564
01:40:41,270 --> 01:40:39,540
have friends with are screaming no but I

2565
01:40:43,490 --> 01:40:41,280
I really do I think it's planted there

2566
01:40:44,750 --> 01:40:43,500
was three stacks of bills uh it was

2567
01:40:46,850 --> 01:40:44,760
roughly fifty eight hundred dollars

2568
01:40:48,290 --> 01:40:46,860
Three Stacks some of the rubber bands

2569
01:40:49,910 --> 01:40:48,300
that were on them were still partially

2570
01:40:51,950 --> 01:40:49,920
intact on the sides of these three

2571
01:40:53,270 --> 01:40:51,960
bundles they're called bundles you know

2572
01:40:54,890 --> 01:40:53,280
there's all this terminology I mean

2573
01:40:56,629 --> 01:40:54,900
there's people that are hardcore into

2574
01:40:58,550 --> 01:40:56,639
this and like I said it's a second

2575
01:41:00,470 --> 01:40:58,560
mystery within a mystery is how that

2576
01:41:02,330 --> 01:41:00,480
money got there because it really wasn't

2577
01:41:04,070 --> 01:41:02,340
along the flight path and the flight

2578
01:41:05,990 --> 01:41:04,080
path was known they were being tracked

2579
01:41:07,669 --> 01:41:06,000
by radar

2580
01:41:09,649 --> 01:41:07,679
um it's called I think the Victor 23

2581
01:41:11,870 --> 01:41:09,659
flight path uh you know they didn't

2582
01:41:14,030 --> 01:41:11,880
really deviate from that I mean

2583
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:14,040
some people deploy as far as over the

2584
01:41:17,629 --> 01:41:16,080
Tina bar uh where the money was found

2585
01:41:19,250 --> 01:41:17,639
but it just didn't it just doesn't

2586
01:41:20,450 --> 01:41:19,260
really pan out that it got there so

2587
01:41:22,430 --> 01:41:20,460
there's all these different theories

2588
01:41:25,250 --> 01:41:22,440
there was a dredging operation in the

2589
01:41:27,830 --> 01:41:25,260
Columbia in 1973 and they thought maybe

2590
01:41:30,709 --> 01:41:27,840
the money got dredged up and dumped on

2591
01:41:32,030 --> 01:41:30,719
you know the Tina bar like that but you

2592
01:41:34,310 --> 01:41:32,040
know just it doesn't add up because

2593
01:41:35,510 --> 01:41:34,320
there's three stacks buried on top of

2594
01:41:37,430 --> 01:41:35,520
each other

2595
01:41:38,810 --> 01:41:37,440
which with some of the rubber bands

2596
01:41:41,330 --> 01:41:38,820
still intact they just don't see how

2597
01:41:44,390 --> 01:41:41,340
natural means it's going to make it do

2598
01:41:46,129 --> 01:41:44,400
that yeah yeah you know and then Tom K

2599
01:41:48,229 --> 01:41:46,139
who's leads us a group called The

2600
01:41:49,850 --> 01:41:48,239
Citizen sluice that did all the the tie

2601
01:41:51,410 --> 01:41:49,860
testing on DB Cooper's tie that he left

2602
01:41:52,490 --> 01:41:51,420
on the plane

2603
01:41:54,229 --> 01:41:52,500
um you know he did a lot of research

2604
01:41:56,209 --> 01:41:54,239
into the money and you did different

2605
01:41:58,010 --> 01:41:56,219
experiments and floating money down the

2606
01:41:59,810 --> 01:41:58,020
river and whatnot but he found that all

2607
01:42:02,629 --> 01:41:59,820
the money had uh this I guess it's a

2608
01:42:04,250 --> 01:42:02,639
fungus it's called diatoms and what they

2609
01:42:06,109 --> 01:42:04,260
found on it by putting this under a

2610
01:42:08,930 --> 01:42:06,119
powerful microscope that it had the

2611
01:42:12,530 --> 01:42:08,940
money at summertime uh diatoms on it

2612
01:42:14,270 --> 01:42:12,540
meaning it was planted sometime closer

2613
01:42:16,189 --> 01:42:14,280
to Summer and not when DB Cooper jumped

2614
01:42:17,450 --> 01:42:16,199
and you know in November

2615
01:42:20,030 --> 01:42:17,460
um so that's another thing that points

2616
01:42:23,090 --> 01:42:20,040
to the fact that the money was not what

2617
01:42:24,830 --> 01:42:23,100
you know found there the night he jumped

2618
01:42:27,050 --> 01:42:24,840
maybe it got away from his body of

2619
01:42:29,629 --> 01:42:27,060
course or during the fall it just lands

2620
01:42:33,229 --> 01:42:29,639
there or he survived and he just dropped

2621
01:42:35,270 --> 01:42:33,239
it oh okay let's Circle back now I

2622
01:42:39,590 --> 01:42:35,280
forgot about the tie

2623
01:42:41,090 --> 01:42:39,600
um the the tie okay to me it's like

2624
01:42:45,050 --> 01:42:41,100
another a bungle this is another

2625
01:42:48,410 --> 01:42:45,060
Keystone Keystone Cops moment you have

2626
01:42:49,850 --> 01:42:48,420
uh okay DD's wearing a suit he's got a

2627
01:42:53,209 --> 01:42:49,860
tie

2628
01:42:55,729 --> 01:42:53,219
um and forensically I would think you

2629
01:42:58,729 --> 01:42:55,739
know we we watch too many CSI shows

2630
01:43:01,609 --> 01:42:58,739
right okay they're all there you if you

2631
01:43:08,229 --> 01:43:01,619
have that tie today it's Case Closed I'd

2632
01:43:12,830 --> 01:43:10,970
now you can correct me I'm just going

2633
01:43:14,570 --> 01:43:12,840
completely off of my memory over

2634
01:43:17,870 --> 01:43:14,580
research over the years into this case

2635
01:43:21,609 --> 01:43:17,880
but they find uh specific Metals um on

2636
01:43:28,669 --> 01:43:25,370
that uh were traced back to Boeing in

2637
01:43:31,810 --> 01:43:28,679
Seattle correct no that was never traced

2638
01:43:33,709 --> 01:43:31,820
a Boeing uh one of the most the the

2639
01:43:36,470 --> 01:43:33,719
strangest thing they found on it was

2640
01:43:38,629 --> 01:43:36,480
pure titanium uh the airline industry

2641
01:43:41,450 --> 01:43:38,639
used alloy titanium that's what you'd

2642
01:43:42,890 --> 01:43:41,460
mainly see in aircraft uh but when they

2643
01:43:44,689 --> 01:43:42,900
originally found it they were there was

2644
01:43:46,370 --> 01:43:44,699
Taco baby you know this person worked

2645
01:43:48,169 --> 01:43:46,380
for Boeing or was laid off and that's

2646
01:43:50,629 --> 01:43:48,179
explains how the metals got on there

2647
01:43:52,129 --> 01:43:50,639
they actually the same group tested a

2648
01:43:54,830 --> 01:43:52,139
tie from a guy that worked at Boeing

2649
01:43:56,390 --> 01:43:54,840
like in the you know hubbub of all of it

2650
01:43:58,490 --> 01:43:56,400
and they tested his tie and there was

2651
01:43:59,990 --> 01:43:58,500
metal on it but it was nothing close to

2652
01:44:02,270 --> 01:44:00,000
what they found on Cooper's tie which

2653
01:44:04,310 --> 01:44:02,280
was pure titanium uh something called

2654
01:44:07,070 --> 01:44:04,320
antimony which is interesting and how

2655
01:44:09,050 --> 01:44:07,080
that was mixed with the titanium that's

2656
01:44:11,149 --> 01:44:09,060
how a company comes in called Rim crew

2657
01:44:13,430 --> 01:44:11,159
out of Midland Pennsylvania maybe it's

2658
01:44:15,770 --> 01:44:13,440
tied to that

2659
01:44:17,030 --> 01:44:15,780
um but man that that tide just goes on

2660
01:44:19,430 --> 01:44:17,040
and on and somebody said me the other

2661
01:44:21,050 --> 01:44:19,440
day that that showed me that all the

2662
01:44:22,669 --> 01:44:21,060
elements found on that tie can be found

2663
01:44:25,750 --> 01:44:22,679
in fireworks

2664
01:44:28,729 --> 01:44:25,760
I mean literally fireworks uh antimony

2665
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:28,739
titanium a glitter they found glitter on

2666
01:44:31,550 --> 01:44:30,239
the tie which I think when Tom K saw

2667
01:44:32,990 --> 01:44:31,560
that he thought okay this you know maybe

2668
01:44:35,270 --> 01:44:33,000
he's a ladies man as a girlfriend or

2669
01:44:36,649 --> 01:44:35,280
wife and it's from their lady's makeup

2670
01:44:38,750 --> 01:44:36,659
but you know there's glitter and

2671
01:44:40,609 --> 01:44:38,760
fireworks like I mean seriously a lot of

2672
01:44:43,310 --> 01:44:40,619
the main components of that tie can be

2673
01:44:44,570 --> 01:44:43,320
found in fireworks uh some of that could

2674
01:44:45,890 --> 01:44:44,580
have come from the jet engine under

2675
01:44:48,169 --> 01:44:45,900
stress because it's flying with the

2676
01:44:51,410 --> 01:44:48,179
after down until it lands at Reno

2677
01:44:53,330 --> 01:44:51,420
there's so many places that that stuff

2678
01:44:55,669 --> 01:44:53,340
could have come from I mean we know that

2679
01:44:58,550 --> 01:44:55,679
the tie didn't exist until like in 1964

2680
01:45:00,649 --> 01:44:58,560
it's a JCPenney Town craft uh some of

2681
01:45:03,109 --> 01:45:00,659
the patents on the the uh antimony and

2682
01:45:04,250 --> 01:45:03,119
titanium are from the 50s you know

2683
01:45:05,750 --> 01:45:04,260
there's a couple of good you know at

2684
01:45:07,850 --> 01:45:05,760
least one good suspect that a friend of

2685
01:45:09,890 --> 01:45:07,860
mine Champion's named Nicholas Broden uh

2686
01:45:11,390 --> 01:45:09,900
named Milton Bordeaux who worked at Rim

2687
01:45:12,649 --> 01:45:11,400
crew that would have been around some of

2688
01:45:14,330 --> 01:45:12,659
the metals but you know he has no

2689
01:45:16,070 --> 01:45:14,340
parachute experience but he's otherwise

2690
01:45:18,530 --> 01:45:16,080
a pretty interesting guy kind of looks

2691
01:45:20,330 --> 01:45:18,540
like the sketches so you know it's an

2692
01:45:22,910 --> 01:45:20,340
Avenue to go down you know I don't think

2693
01:45:24,109 --> 01:45:22,920
he's a bad suspect at all and uh it was

2694
01:45:26,570 --> 01:45:24,119
it's certainly what you know the

2695
01:45:28,850 --> 01:45:26,580
hardcore uh Cooper rides the people what

2696
01:45:30,109 --> 01:45:28,860
we call the Cooper Vortex uh dig into

2697
01:45:32,450 --> 01:45:30,119
because that's what they have they have

2698
01:45:35,090 --> 01:45:32,460
that tie and they have the analysis of

2699
01:45:37,490 --> 01:45:35,100
the metal so they chase every lead all

2700
01:45:40,490 --> 01:45:37,500
day yeah what about DNA on that tie

2701
01:45:41,930 --> 01:45:40,500
you've got to use your hands to to tie a

2702
01:45:46,729 --> 01:45:41,940
tie

2703
01:45:49,609 --> 01:45:46,739
and I know the last time it was tested

2704
01:45:53,870 --> 01:45:49,619
it came back as Tom K's DNA it was the

2705
01:45:55,430 --> 01:45:53,880
guy testing the tie uh so they just I

2706
01:45:57,350 --> 01:45:55,440
think there's multiple samples and it's

2707
01:45:59,330 --> 01:45:57,360
I mean it's from a tie so it's just not

2708
01:46:01,070 --> 01:45:59,340
really I don't think we're ever going to

2709
01:46:03,530 --> 01:46:01,080
get good DNA from that tie I wish they I

2710
01:46:05,090 --> 01:46:03,540
wish they would I really do I wish they

2711
01:46:07,790 --> 01:46:05,100
could get DNA from there and they said

2712
01:46:09,229 --> 01:46:07,800
we know this is Coopers but the tie you

2713
01:46:11,990 --> 01:46:09,239
gotta you think about this is like the

2714
01:46:14,270 --> 01:46:12,000
Zodiac letters in San Francisco that tie

2715
01:46:17,870 --> 01:46:14,280
was kept in like literally like a like a

2716
01:46:19,729 --> 01:46:17,880
shoe box in you know FBI custody where

2717
01:46:21,350 --> 01:46:19,739
employees they would have parties they

2718
01:46:23,149 --> 01:46:21,360
would wear that tie because you know the

2719
01:46:25,430 --> 01:46:23,159
Mystique of it and we're in DB Cooper's

2720
01:46:27,709 --> 01:46:25,440
tie it was in a box with the parachutes

2721
01:46:30,050 --> 01:46:27,719
it's been bare-handed it's it has not

2722
01:46:30,770 --> 01:46:30,060
been stored right

2723
01:46:32,450 --> 01:46:30,780
um

2724
01:46:34,070 --> 01:46:32,460
you know I know some guys are trying to

2725
01:46:36,109 --> 01:46:34,080
get it released again to try to test

2726
01:46:38,090 --> 01:46:36,119
under the uh the spindle of the tie

2727
01:46:39,109 --> 01:46:38,100
maybe to find some DNA there but now

2728
01:46:40,550 --> 01:46:39,119
that you know the government doesn't

2729
01:46:43,070 --> 01:46:40,560
give it up again because they'd already

2730
01:46:45,350 --> 01:46:43,080
given access to uh the citizen sluice to

2731
01:46:46,609 --> 01:46:45,360
to examine it all they wanted so I don't

2732
01:46:48,109 --> 01:46:46,619
think it's gonna happen again I don't

2733
01:46:52,310 --> 01:46:48,119
think that they'll ever give the tie up

2734
01:46:57,189 --> 01:46:52,320
again for testing now uh your book uh

2735
01:47:01,189 --> 01:46:57,199
you you talk about uh Ted Braden

2736
01:47:02,570 --> 01:47:01,199
and uh it has your opinion okay well

2737
01:47:04,790 --> 01:47:02,580
wait a minute wait a minute hold on

2738
01:47:07,790 --> 01:47:04,800
before I ask you know exactly what I'm

2739
01:47:11,149 --> 01:47:07,800
going to ask has your opinion changed

2740
01:47:13,189 --> 01:47:11,159
um who was Ted Braden and and I've seen

2741
01:47:17,149 --> 01:47:13,199
interviews with him and I've seen a lot

2742
01:47:19,550 --> 01:47:17,159
of stuff uh with him over the years

2743
01:47:23,330 --> 01:47:19,560
um and and of course he was the the

2744
01:47:25,550 --> 01:47:23,340
focus of your book uh about DB Cooper so

2745
01:47:27,169 --> 01:47:25,560
tell everybody who Ted Braden is and

2746
01:47:30,830 --> 01:47:27,179
let's jump into that

2747
01:47:32,570 --> 01:47:30,840
yes Ted braid was a true Enigma I mean a

2748
01:47:36,410 --> 01:47:32,580
guy like Ted Braden comes along once in

2749
01:47:38,990 --> 01:47:36,420
a lifetime he was a real Rambo of course

2750
01:47:40,850 --> 01:47:39,000
the movie Rambo was was based on Audie

2751
01:47:43,310 --> 01:47:40,860
Murphy of a World War II Hero Of course

2752
01:47:46,550 --> 01:47:43,320
set in Vietnam but uh Ted Braden was a

2753
01:47:50,450 --> 01:47:46,560
Rambo I mean uh a smaller guy but this

2754
01:47:51,890 --> 01:47:50,460
guy was a a badass with a capital B he

2755
01:47:53,330 --> 01:47:51,900
joins up the fight in World War II he

2756
01:47:56,750 --> 01:47:53,340
lies about his age he goes over to fight

2757
01:47:58,790 --> 01:47:56,760
in World War II at age 16 and uh he's in

2758
01:48:00,709 --> 01:47:58,800
the Battle of the Bulge and he's uh

2759
01:48:02,750 --> 01:48:00,719
sneaking out to the German listening

2760
01:48:04,490 --> 01:48:02,760
post or the U.S listening post because

2761
01:48:05,930 --> 01:48:04,500
he knows the German guys are going to go

2762
01:48:07,490 --> 01:48:05,940
out to their listening post at age 16

2763
01:48:10,070 --> 01:48:07,500
because this guy just wants to get so

2764
01:48:11,930 --> 01:48:10,080
close to the action uh he's fighting it

2765
01:48:14,330 --> 01:48:11,940
by Stone he gets two bronze stars at

2766
01:48:17,330 --> 01:48:14,340
that young age seeing you know hard in

2767
01:48:19,910 --> 01:48:17,340
combat uh he gets back he's from Toledo

2768
01:48:21,470 --> 01:48:19,920
Ohio and he goes to two or three years

2769
01:48:24,229 --> 01:48:21,480
of college but he's a career military

2770
01:48:25,430 --> 01:48:24,239
guy and uh he gets back into the army

2771
01:48:26,870 --> 01:48:25,440
and what he finds out that he's just

2772
01:48:28,550 --> 01:48:26,880
naturally really good at is jumping out

2773
01:48:31,850 --> 01:48:28,560
of airplane planes he's a total natural

2774
01:48:34,370 --> 01:48:31,860
addict uh he's just a pioneer of what

2775
01:48:38,270 --> 01:48:34,380
they call Halo high altitude low opening

2776
01:48:39,890 --> 01:48:38,280
parachuting and he's in a a sports an

2777
01:48:41,450 --> 01:48:39,900
army Sports skydiving team called the

2778
01:48:43,370 --> 01:48:41,460
Golden arrows and he's going all through

2779
01:48:45,590 --> 01:48:43,380
Europe winning all these competitions

2780
01:48:48,350 --> 01:48:45,600
for skydiving I mean I think he won most

2781
01:48:50,510 --> 01:48:48,360
of them uh or his team would win it was

2782
01:48:52,370 --> 01:48:50,520
just that good at it one of the guys

2783
01:48:54,169 --> 01:48:52,380
that actually would fly these guys for

2784
01:48:56,270 --> 01:48:54,179
their jumping back in the early 60s was

2785
01:48:58,250 --> 01:48:56,280
Kris Kristofferson was one of the pilots

2786
01:49:01,850 --> 01:48:58,260
back then in the Army on the eighth

2787
01:49:03,830 --> 01:49:01,860
division in Germany uh so um back then

2788
01:49:06,590 --> 01:49:03,840
Braden's friends with this guy named uh

2789
01:49:09,709 --> 01:49:06,600
John singalov who was a became later

2790
01:49:11,570 --> 01:49:09,719
becomes an army General he uh was in

2791
01:49:13,669 --> 01:49:11,580
something called the OSS in World War II

2792
01:49:16,250 --> 01:49:13,679
it's called the office of strategic

2793
01:49:19,609 --> 01:49:16,260
services and he was a literally a

2794
01:49:20,990 --> 01:49:19,619
co-founder of the CIA and uh he winds up

2795
01:49:22,910 --> 01:49:21,000
becoming friends with Braden in the

2796
01:49:25,070 --> 01:49:22,920
early 60s at the parachuting Club in

2797
01:49:27,709 --> 01:49:25,080
Germany for the eight Division and they

2798
01:49:29,870 --> 01:49:27,719
they swap World War II so

2799
01:49:33,169 --> 01:49:29,880
um so next brain can be found uh

2800
01:49:35,090 --> 01:49:33,179
fighting in Vietnam in 1965 and he

2801
01:49:36,890 --> 01:49:35,100
becomes uh he's a part of something

2802
01:49:39,229 --> 01:49:36,900
called project Delta and he's teaching

2803
01:49:41,629 --> 01:49:39,239
uh Halo parachuting techniques to the

2804
01:49:42,950 --> 01:49:41,639
indigenous Fighters over in Vietnam you

2805
01:49:45,050 --> 01:49:42,960
know the the people that are from the

2806
01:49:47,090 --> 01:49:45,060
area the different tribes that are

2807
01:49:49,370 --> 01:49:47,100
fighting with U.S Special Forces and

2808
01:49:51,229 --> 01:49:49,380
he's teaching them halo and then he

2809
01:49:53,990 --> 01:49:51,239
becomes a member of the Black Ops unit

2810
01:49:57,229 --> 01:49:54,000
in Vietnam of Special Forces it's called

2811
01:49:58,689 --> 01:49:57,239
Mac V SOG and uh these guys just do all

2812
01:50:01,669 --> 01:49:58,699
the crazy stuff it's a military

2813
01:50:03,470 --> 01:50:01,679
assistance command Vietnam studies an

2814
01:50:05,570 --> 01:50:03,480
observations Group which sounds really

2815
01:50:08,450 --> 01:50:05,580
benign but these guys are the the top

2816
01:50:10,070 --> 01:50:08,460
tier of Special Forces going into Laos

2817
01:50:12,470 --> 01:50:10,080
which we weren't supposed to be in Laos

2818
01:50:13,850 --> 01:50:12,480
so they went in there uh Estero they

2819
01:50:17,030 --> 01:50:13,860
didn't have anything that would ID them

2820
01:50:19,250 --> 01:50:17,040
no markings no dog tags nothing and if

2821
01:50:20,629 --> 01:50:19,260
they got caught uh sorry guys we can't

2822
01:50:22,550 --> 01:50:20,639
claim we know you because you're not

2823
01:50:25,129 --> 01:50:22,560
supposed to be in Laos but they were

2824
01:50:27,950 --> 01:50:25,139
doing wiretaps uh Ted Braden was what

2825
01:50:30,530 --> 01:50:27,960
they call a a 1-0 that was a team leader

2826
01:50:32,390 --> 01:50:30,540
on a song team and they were made up

2827
01:50:33,770 --> 01:50:32,400
like seven to eight guys there'd be

2828
01:50:35,330 --> 01:50:33,780
three or four Americans and the rest

2829
01:50:37,490 --> 01:50:35,340
would be uh what they call Mountain

2830
01:50:39,050 --> 01:50:37,500
yards which is a uh a tribe out there

2831
01:50:41,390 --> 01:50:39,060
that became really good Fighters that

2832
01:50:44,330 --> 01:50:41,400
trained by our special forces so Braden

2833
01:50:46,850 --> 01:50:44,340
does the first wire tap uh in Laos uh

2834
01:50:49,070 --> 01:50:46,860
hooking up a device I mean really crazy

2835
01:50:51,830 --> 01:50:49,080
stuff with his team always got his uh

2836
01:50:54,709 --> 01:50:51,840
his guys out he was doing crazy stuff in

2837
01:50:57,109 --> 01:50:54,719
Vietnam uh you know I just I mean he was

2838
01:50:59,750 --> 01:50:57,119
a daredevil he liked adrenaline he liked

2839
01:51:01,609 --> 01:50:59,760
to push it he was uh when he would go

2840
01:51:02,810 --> 01:51:01,619
and he would jump over in Vietnam he'd

2841
01:51:05,270 --> 01:51:02,820
like to pull the ripcord under a

2842
01:51:06,770 --> 01:51:05,280
thousand feet just crazy stuff that no

2843
01:51:09,770 --> 01:51:06,780
one would ever do I mean he was that

2844
01:51:12,410 --> 01:51:09,780
much of a daredevil with skydiving but

2845
01:51:15,290 --> 01:51:12,420
uh he was actually once I've slept on

2846
01:51:18,830 --> 01:51:15,300
the on an NBA bunker in Laos for three

2847
01:51:20,930 --> 01:51:18,840
hours like a NBA headquarter bunker he

2848
01:51:22,669 --> 01:51:20,940
had no fear of death he was I think he

2849
01:51:25,370 --> 01:51:22,679
was in combat so long he was starting to

2850
01:51:28,070 --> 01:51:25,380
get a little I just uh crazy in his mind

2851
01:51:29,870 --> 01:51:28,080
maybe a PTSD type up but he literally

2852
01:51:32,990 --> 01:51:29,880
had no fear of death

2853
01:51:35,030 --> 01:51:33,000
so you know that's that's Braden's

2854
01:51:37,850 --> 01:51:35,040
career in nam he's there for two years

2855
01:51:39,770 --> 01:51:37,860
24 months consecutively a guy that was

2856
01:51:41,689 --> 01:51:39,780
with him over there said uh Ted Braden

2857
01:51:44,090 --> 01:51:41,699
is among those professionals that has a

2858
01:51:46,430 --> 01:51:44,100
secret Death Wish coupled with amazing

2859
01:51:47,510 --> 01:51:46,440
survival instincts was how he was

2860
01:51:50,149 --> 01:51:47,520
described

2861
01:51:53,090 --> 01:51:50,159
so uh two years in nam he finally just

2862
01:51:54,709 --> 01:51:53,100
decides to Desert Vietnam just and just

2863
01:51:57,109 --> 01:51:54,719
on its own he's just gonna leave and not

2864
01:51:59,209 --> 01:51:57,119
really tell anybody uh gets back to the

2865
01:52:01,609 --> 01:51:59,219
United States this is it in uh into

2866
01:52:04,129 --> 01:52:01,619
December of 1966. he's been in Vietnam

2867
01:52:05,930 --> 01:52:04,139
for 24 months uh he goes back to the

2868
01:52:08,390 --> 01:52:05,940
States for a couple of months and he

2869
01:52:10,970 --> 01:52:08,400
winds up over in Belgium trying to find

2870
01:52:12,770 --> 01:52:10,980
work as a mercenary so he gets recruited

2871
01:52:15,950 --> 01:52:12,780
to fight in a group called five Commando

2872
01:52:17,689 --> 01:52:15,960
down in the Congo Wars so he goes down

2873
01:52:19,010 --> 01:52:17,699
he gets recruited for five Commando he

2874
01:52:20,270 --> 01:52:19,020
goes down there does all the testing

2875
01:52:23,270 --> 01:52:20,280
they you know they're impressed with him

2876
01:52:25,129 --> 01:52:23,280
he uses an alias of a Canadian guy named

2877
01:52:26,629 --> 01:52:25,139
Edward Joseph Horner so he's down there

2878
01:52:28,970 --> 01:52:26,639
fighting under an alias of a Canadian

2879
01:52:30,950 --> 01:52:28,980
guy which is kind of interesting and uh

2880
01:52:32,629 --> 01:52:30,960
the CIA finds out that Braden's down

2881
01:52:34,729 --> 01:52:32,639
there somehow somebody ratted him out I

2882
01:52:38,209 --> 01:52:34,739
think his Colonel guy named Peters finds

2883
01:52:40,129 --> 01:52:38,219
out four guys come out of a corner at a

2884
01:52:41,270 --> 01:52:40,139
hotel after Peterson says he needs to

2885
01:52:43,189 --> 01:52:41,280
meet with Braden there who was his

2886
01:52:44,930 --> 01:52:43,199
Superior and four guys come out of the

2887
01:52:46,490 --> 01:52:44,940
darkness with with guns at Braden's head

2888
01:52:50,330 --> 01:52:46,500
and said are you Ted B Braden he's like

2889
01:52:52,729 --> 01:52:50,340
yeah got me and uh interrogate him for

2890
01:52:55,250 --> 01:52:52,739
three days strip them naked on a bed all

2891
01:52:57,950 --> 01:52:55,260
this stuff fly them back to the United

2892
01:53:00,709 --> 01:52:57,960
States he's put in Fort Dix in the brig

2893
01:53:03,470 --> 01:53:00,719
in Fort Dix in jail military jail in

2894
01:53:05,270 --> 01:53:03,480
Fort Dix uh enter a guy named Hank bird

2895
01:53:07,609 --> 01:53:05,280
so I know really well who was overseeing

2896
01:53:08,870 --> 01:53:07,619
Ted Braden in Fort Dix and he said he

2897
01:53:10,550 --> 01:53:08,880
knew something was different with this

2898
01:53:12,830 --> 01:53:10,560
guy immediately because he was getting

2899
01:53:15,890 --> 01:53:12,840
special treatment he had a television

2900
01:53:18,770 --> 01:53:15,900
set in his cell at Fort Dix he said this

2901
01:53:21,169 --> 01:53:18,780
is unheard of he said he had cigars in

2902
01:53:23,450 --> 01:53:21,179
his cell he said this is he's like what

2903
01:53:24,590 --> 01:53:23,460
is going on he goes he couldn't believe

2904
01:53:26,810 --> 01:53:24,600
where this stuff was coming from

2905
01:53:28,129 --> 01:53:26,820
somebody was taking care of him and Hank

2906
01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:28,139
said you know

2907
01:53:31,370 --> 01:53:30,000
how are you how do you have all this and

2908
01:53:33,050 --> 01:53:31,380
you just say don't worry sir this will

2909
01:53:34,850 --> 01:53:33,060
all work out you know he had no fear

2910
01:53:37,129 --> 01:53:34,860
that something was going to happen so

2911
01:53:38,390 --> 01:53:37,139
long story short he winds up getting uh

2912
01:53:40,370 --> 01:53:38,400
they're gonna have they were gonna court

2913
01:53:42,109 --> 01:53:40,380
marshall them and then a guy named

2914
01:53:43,790 --> 01:53:42,119
Harold K Johnson who was the Secretary

2915
01:53:49,310 --> 01:53:43,800
of

2916
01:53:50,750 --> 01:53:49,320
title but uh that he was the highest up

2917
01:53:52,370 --> 01:53:50,760
guy in the Army under the president of

2918
01:53:53,810 --> 01:53:52,380
the United States calls down and says

2919
01:53:56,030 --> 01:53:53,820
you're not going to court-martial this

2920
01:53:57,649 --> 01:53:56,040
guy you're just gonna uh give him an

2921
01:53:59,689 --> 01:53:57,659
honorable discharge and let him go they

2922
01:54:02,030 --> 01:53:59,699
go why you know he's a deserter he's

2923
01:54:03,830 --> 01:54:02,040
down for desertion and he said well we

2924
01:54:05,930 --> 01:54:03,840
don't have enough MPS to secure the

2925
01:54:07,250 --> 01:54:05,940
courtroom and and they were like are you

2926
01:54:09,410 --> 01:54:07,260
kidding me this is for dicks there's

2927
01:54:11,810 --> 01:54:09,420
this place is crawling with it with MPS

2928
01:54:13,490 --> 01:54:11,820
so it was just some drummed up thing and

2929
01:54:14,629 --> 01:54:13,500
they lined up Braden at the front of the

2930
01:54:16,129 --> 01:54:14,639
line for people that were getting let

2931
01:54:17,570 --> 01:54:16,139
out of jail and they would usually line

2932
01:54:19,310 --> 01:54:17,580
up by Rank and they had a colonel in

2933
01:54:20,629 --> 01:54:19,320
there they had Brayden who was a

2934
01:54:22,910 --> 01:54:20,639
Sergeant First Class in front of the

2935
01:54:26,090 --> 01:54:22,920
colonel you know so he was getting

2936
01:54:28,790 --> 01:54:26,100
special treatment so this is uh you know

2937
01:54:31,550 --> 01:54:28,800
his story this guy had friends in high

2938
01:54:33,530 --> 01:54:31,560
places yeah and he was a hero he was a

2939
01:54:35,810 --> 01:54:33,540
hero and and got stuff done in Special

2940
01:54:41,450 --> 01:54:35,820
Forces so

2941
01:54:46,609 --> 01:54:43,729
um now and I may have there's so many

2942
01:54:48,129 --> 01:54:46,619
suspects in this case but with him

2943
01:54:53,930 --> 01:54:48,139
specifically

2944
01:54:56,090 --> 01:54:53,940
did did he flip flop on on him being DB

2945
01:54:58,970 --> 01:54:56,100
Cooper

2946
01:55:01,790 --> 01:54:58,980
what do you mean did he say that he was

2947
01:55:04,430 --> 01:55:01,800
D.B Cooper and then change his story uh

2948
01:55:06,169 --> 01:55:04,440
did he know he he no

2949
01:55:08,990 --> 01:55:06,179
um his third wife he was married to his

2950
01:55:11,450 --> 01:55:09,000
third wife in 1971. not much is known

2951
01:55:15,050 --> 01:55:11,460
about Braden

2952
01:55:18,310 --> 01:55:15,060
um from 1967 there's an oracle written

2953
01:55:20,890 --> 01:55:18,320
about him in the 1967 ramparts magazine

2954
01:55:22,850 --> 01:55:20,900
uh which is kind of this

2955
01:55:24,350 --> 01:55:22,860
anti-government anti you know

2956
01:55:27,590 --> 01:55:24,360
establishment kind of thing and it's

2957
01:55:31,330 --> 01:55:27,600
it's a fascinating article uh you know

2958
01:55:36,410 --> 01:55:34,189
I love that picture of Braden and yeah

2959
01:55:38,570 --> 01:55:36,420
it's a great picture and he and he you

2960
01:55:40,970 --> 01:55:38,580
know puts this ad out about

2961
01:55:42,410 --> 01:55:40,980
you know which is just stunning yeah

2962
01:55:45,350 --> 01:55:42,420
yeah come and get me come and get me

2963
01:55:48,410 --> 01:55:45,360
yeah mercenary Soldier uh Master

2964
01:55:50,629 --> 01:55:48,420
parachutes 900 free Falls all this kind

2965
01:55:52,669 --> 01:55:50,639
of stuff so uh he was literally still

2966
01:55:55,129 --> 01:55:52,679
working looking for work as a mercenary

2967
01:55:56,270 --> 01:55:55,139
then but he was not allowed to you know

2968
01:55:58,910 --> 01:55:56,280
part of his getting his honorable

2969
01:56:00,590 --> 01:55:58,920
discharges he was never allowed to join

2970
01:56:04,729 --> 01:56:00,600
the military again

2971
01:56:07,310 --> 01:56:04,739
so that was his Grudge oh now okay so

2972
01:56:10,370 --> 01:56:07,320
why is he your Prime Suspect

2973
01:56:12,290 --> 01:56:10,380
because you know I was into the DB

2974
01:56:14,450 --> 01:56:12,300
Cooper case before I ever had a suspect

2975
01:56:16,370 --> 01:56:14,460
I wasn't looking to solve it it was

2976
01:56:18,050 --> 01:56:16,380
actually uh uh Bruce Smith who's

2977
01:56:20,270 --> 01:56:18,060
considered the mayor cooperville was

2978
01:56:21,709 --> 01:56:20,280
looking into him on a on the DB Cooper

2979
01:56:23,350 --> 01:56:21,719
message board I think it was the Drop

2980
01:56:25,850 --> 01:56:23,360
Zone and he was talking to another guy

2981
01:56:27,590 --> 01:56:25,860
uh that was a you know long time DB

2982
01:56:29,149 --> 01:56:27,600
Cooper researcher named snowman with

2983
01:56:32,090 --> 01:56:29,159
Bruce and they were talking about

2984
01:56:33,709 --> 01:56:32,100
Braden's background and uh I was just I

2985
01:56:36,050 --> 01:56:33,719
was just floored hearing about this guy

2986
01:56:39,470 --> 01:56:36,060
because I love all Vietnam Special

2987
01:56:41,750 --> 01:56:39,480
Forces so I thought I want to look into

2988
01:56:44,390 --> 01:56:41,760
this guy for myself you know because at

2989
01:56:46,970 --> 01:56:44,400
that time I kind of liked uh Wolfgang

2990
01:56:49,790 --> 01:56:46,980
gossip uh is a suspect you know but I

2991
01:56:51,109 --> 01:56:49,800
never promoted a suspect or cared uh

2992
01:56:52,790 --> 01:56:51,119
when Colbert came forward with Robert

2993
01:56:54,470 --> 01:56:52,800
rackstraw and he had that that History

2994
01:56:56,330 --> 01:56:54,480
Channel thing I was like hey I hope this

2995
01:56:58,430 --> 01:56:56,340
guy solved it I love this case and he

2996
01:57:00,229 --> 01:56:58,440
solved it great well no uh but that

2997
01:57:01,729 --> 01:57:00,239
whole thing falls apart in the show and

2998
01:57:04,189 --> 01:57:01,739
bradstraw just falls apart as the

2999
01:57:06,290 --> 01:57:04,199
suspect uh but the more I learned about

3000
01:57:08,830 --> 01:57:06,300
Braden the more I thought this is the

3001
01:57:12,290 --> 01:57:08,840
guy because

3002
01:57:15,770 --> 01:57:12,300
are convinced it's him he looks like the

3003
01:57:17,930 --> 01:57:15,780
pictures that were drawn from the flight

3004
01:57:19,850 --> 01:57:17,940
attendants uh descriptions

3005
01:57:21,830 --> 01:57:19,860
all right it looks like the sketches of

3006
01:57:23,270 --> 01:57:21,840
course there's three of them uh there's

3007
01:57:25,910 --> 01:57:23,280
three Composites that all look different

3008
01:57:27,050 --> 01:57:25,920
uh but he looks he looks a lot like the

3009
01:57:28,550 --> 01:57:27,060
sketches I mean there's a couple other

3010
01:57:30,890 --> 01:57:28,560
suspects that are better matches to the

3011
01:57:32,510 --> 01:57:30,900
sketches brain's a little shorter than

3012
01:57:34,490 --> 01:57:32,520
the uh the height estimates for Cooper

3013
01:57:35,830 --> 01:57:34,500
He's five eight

3014
01:57:38,750 --> 01:57:35,840
um

3015
01:57:41,390 --> 01:57:38,760
uh you know Tina mucklow said that first

3016
01:57:43,430 --> 01:57:41,400
said 5 10 to uh six feet Florence

3017
01:57:44,149 --> 01:57:43,440
Shafter said six feet

3018
01:57:45,770 --> 01:57:44,159
um

3019
01:57:47,450 --> 01:57:45,780
you had Bill Mitchell the college

3020
01:57:49,330 --> 01:57:47,460
student who I think had the most relaxed

3021
01:57:52,550 --> 01:57:49,340
view of Cooper

3022
01:57:54,530 --> 01:57:52,560
right he sat next to him he sat next to

3023
01:57:57,290 --> 01:57:54,540
him right Bill Mitchell sat next to him

3024
01:57:59,930 --> 01:57:57,300
and uh Bill Mitchell said five nine five

3025
01:58:01,550 --> 01:57:59,940
ten uh and he said he was a guy Bill

3026
01:58:02,750 --> 01:58:01,560
Mitchell was six two he remembered

3027
01:58:04,609 --> 01:58:02,760
saying you know I could have easily

3028
01:58:05,930 --> 01:58:04,619
handled this guy you know like I'd say

3029
01:58:07,609 --> 01:58:05,940
he even made a comment somebody knew

3030
01:58:09,470 --> 01:58:07,619
saying man I would have been deep deep

3031
01:58:10,850 --> 01:58:09,480
due to if it was Brayden you know

3032
01:58:12,950 --> 01:58:10,860
because he just thought I could easily

3033
01:58:15,410 --> 01:58:12,960
handle him you know

3034
01:58:18,229 --> 01:58:15,420
um so I'm judging height from a seated

3035
01:58:21,229 --> 01:58:18,239
position it's not an easy task were you

3036
01:58:24,589 --> 01:58:21,239
able to place Braden in Seattle

3037
01:58:26,810 --> 01:58:24,599
no no I'm not I can't I can't place him

3038
01:58:28,790 --> 01:58:26,820
in the Pacific Northwest uh

3039
01:58:31,729 --> 01:58:28,800
uh but other than that it's all upside

3040
01:58:33,530 --> 01:58:31,739
but uh he was a long-haul trucker he

3041
01:58:35,330 --> 01:58:33,540
worked for Consolidated freightways at

3042
01:58:37,189 --> 01:58:35,340
the time that was based out of uh

3043
01:58:40,010 --> 01:58:37,199
Portland later moved over the river to

3044
01:58:42,169 --> 01:58:40,020
Vancouver at the time so he was all over

3045
01:58:44,689 --> 01:58:42,179
the place uh you know he's a convicted

3046
01:58:46,669 --> 01:58:44,699
felon he got convicted of really

3047
01:58:48,830 --> 01:58:46,679
interesting felonies after the Cooper

3048
01:58:50,689 --> 01:58:48,840
crime

3049
01:58:53,330 --> 01:58:50,699
um you know one of my best pieces of

3050
01:58:56,030 --> 01:58:53,340
evidence is what's called DB Cooper

3051
01:58:57,709 --> 01:58:56,040
number six and I have a copy of it here

3052
01:59:01,250 --> 01:58:57,719
so let me read this real quick because

3053
01:59:02,810 --> 01:59:01,260
it's it's a short letter and it says uh

3054
01:59:05,390 --> 01:59:02,820
it's written to the Portland Oregonian

3055
01:59:07,550 --> 01:59:05,400
newspaper on March 28 1972 it says

3056
01:59:09,470 --> 01:59:07,560
gentlemen this letter is to let you know

3057
01:59:11,750 --> 01:59:09,480
that I'm not dead but really alive and

3058
01:59:13,790 --> 01:59:11,760
just back from the Bahamas so your silly

3059
01:59:15,770 --> 01:59:13,800
Troopers up there can stop looking for

3060
01:59:18,530 --> 01:59:15,780
me this is just how dumb this government

3061
01:59:20,810 --> 01:59:18,540
is I like your articles about me but you

3062
01:59:23,030 --> 01:59:20,820
could stop them now DB Cooper is not

3063
01:59:25,910 --> 01:59:23,040
real I had to do something with the

3064
01:59:28,490 --> 01:59:25,920
experience Uncle taught me so here I am

3065
01:59:31,430 --> 01:59:28,500
a very rich man uncle gave too much of

3066
01:59:33,050 --> 01:59:31,440
it to World idiots and no work for me I

3067
01:59:35,689 --> 01:59:33,060
had to do it to relieve myself of

3068
01:59:38,390 --> 01:59:35,699
frustration I want out of the system and

3069
01:59:39,950 --> 01:59:38,400
saw a way through good old Unk now you

3070
01:59:41,750 --> 01:59:39,960
know I'm going around the world and they

3071
01:59:44,270 --> 01:59:41,760
will never find me because I am smarter

3072
01:59:46,729 --> 01:59:44,280
than the systems Lackey cops and lame

3073
01:59:48,770 --> 01:59:46,739
duck leaders now it's uncle's turn to

3074
01:59:51,290 --> 01:59:48,780
weep and pay one of its own some cash

3075
01:59:53,649 --> 01:59:51,300
for a change and please tell the Lackey

3076
01:59:55,910 --> 01:59:53,659
cops DB Cooper is not my real name

3077
01:59:58,970 --> 01:59:55,920
sincerely a rich man

3078
02:00:01,910 --> 01:59:58,980
uh that's how Ted Braden wrote that's

3079
02:00:04,609 --> 02:00:01,920
how he insulted people he would he did

3080
02:00:07,430 --> 02:00:04,619
he did Uncle and Sam he would do if you

3081
02:00:11,570 --> 02:00:07,440
read ramparts that's how Braden wrote

3082
02:00:13,729 --> 02:00:11,580
that's right he poked at everybody all

3083
02:00:16,010 --> 02:00:13,739
the time yeah and he the way he had

3084
02:00:17,629 --> 02:00:16,020
alliterated a world idiot what's a world

3085
02:00:20,810 --> 02:00:17,639
idiot that's something that braid would

3086
02:00:22,910 --> 02:00:20,820
say who's Unk uncle's Uncle Sam you

3087
02:00:25,070 --> 02:00:22,920
taught me how to be this Soldier this is

3088
02:00:27,229 --> 02:00:25,080
how Braden wrote I mean you read Rampart

3089
02:00:28,729 --> 02:00:27,239
you're like he says don't work for me he

3090
02:00:30,709 --> 02:00:28,739
was always about the black market in

3091
02:00:34,669 --> 02:00:30,719
Vietnam this is his Alibi it's called

3092
02:00:37,070 --> 02:00:34,679
ramparts 1967. this is his motive Ted

3093
02:00:39,589 --> 02:00:37,080
Ray's motive is written for us before

3094
02:00:40,850 --> 02:00:39,599
the hijacking that's one thing he has

3095
02:00:42,410 --> 02:00:40,860
and I think he wrote that letter I'm

3096
02:00:45,530 --> 02:00:42,420
convinced of it I am and it's the only

3097
02:00:49,370 --> 02:00:45,540
D.B Cooper letter that isn't signed DB

3098
02:00:51,109 --> 02:00:49,380
Cooper all the rest of them are maybe

3099
02:00:52,970 --> 02:00:51,119
Cooper well that wasn't even the name he

3100
02:00:54,530 --> 02:00:52,980
gave it was Dan Cooper first of all so I

3101
02:00:57,709 --> 02:00:54,540
never thought the real DB Cooper would

3102
02:01:00,169 --> 02:00:57,719
just latch onto the moniker right right

3103
02:01:02,570 --> 02:01:00,179
right that was creative a mistake by the

3104
02:01:06,410 --> 02:01:02,580
media to begin with

3105
02:01:10,910 --> 02:01:06,420
um and and uh one last uh who was the

3106
02:01:12,589 --> 02:01:10,920
guy uh oh man I don't have a bunch of

3107
02:01:15,410 --> 02:01:12,599
notes in front of me I don't do the show

3108
02:01:19,010 --> 02:01:15,420
that way so excuse me for for not

3109
02:01:22,250 --> 02:01:19,020
remember but who was the suspect that

3110
02:01:26,330 --> 02:01:22,260
was the fan of Dan Cooper the Canadian

3111
02:01:28,910 --> 02:01:26,340
uh uh comic book character

3112
02:01:30,410 --> 02:01:28,920
I can't remember who to tried to tie

3113
02:01:32,990 --> 02:01:30,420
their guy into that I mean of course

3114
02:01:36,770 --> 02:01:33,000
that's just yeah I know I know I know I

3115
02:01:38,209 --> 02:01:36,780
was somebody layering at a guy but um I

3116
02:01:40,729 --> 02:01:38,219
was fast I don't know who claimed that

3117
02:01:43,609 --> 02:01:40,739
yeah I was fascinated with that angle

3118
02:01:45,109 --> 02:01:43,619
and it just came back to me again if you

3119
02:01:47,689 --> 02:01:45,119
don't remember and I don't remember but

3120
02:01:49,790 --> 02:01:47,699
there was a little you know what's yeah

3121
02:01:52,129 --> 02:01:49,800
I don't know of course Dan you know the

3122
02:01:54,950 --> 02:01:52,139
the Dan Cooper comic book was a Belgian

3123
02:01:56,510 --> 02:01:54,960
comic it was made in Belgium uh It Was

3124
02:01:58,189 --> 02:01:56,520
Written in French I think there was a

3125
02:02:01,250 --> 02:01:58,199
couple other versions that were were

3126
02:02:02,209 --> 02:02:01,260
written in other languages but uh you

3127
02:02:04,430 --> 02:02:02,219
know they said you could get it in

3128
02:02:07,189 --> 02:02:04,440
French speaking Canada but it was a

3129
02:02:09,589 --> 02:02:07,199
Belgian comic uh out of Belgium I mean

3130
02:02:11,089 --> 02:02:09,599
so uh you know people think that he took

3131
02:02:13,669 --> 02:02:11,099
the name from the comic book it's

3132
02:02:15,709 --> 02:02:13,679
possible you know Braden had a lot of

3133
02:02:18,229 --> 02:02:15,719
connections with Belgium I mean he was

3134
02:02:19,850 --> 02:02:18,239
in five Commando it was belgians uh he

3135
02:02:21,530 --> 02:02:19,860
got recruited in Brussels I mean the guy

3136
02:02:24,229 --> 02:02:21,540
had been to Belgium plenty times jumping

3137
02:02:26,330 --> 02:02:24,239
and been all over the world

3138
02:02:29,209 --> 02:02:26,340
um but who knows I mean there's actually

3139
02:02:31,490 --> 02:02:29,219
a magazine uh that a guy found uh called

3140
02:02:33,229 --> 02:02:31,500
air airtels I think that was an American

3141
02:02:36,470 --> 02:02:33,239
magazine that had a story about a Dan

3142
02:02:37,729 --> 02:02:36,480
Cooper who was a parachuting guy uh that

3143
02:02:39,649 --> 02:02:37,739
wasn't Belgium It's actually an American

3144
02:02:40,970 --> 02:02:39,659
thing so it could have just as well come

3145
02:02:44,990 --> 02:02:40,980
from that

3146
02:02:47,390 --> 02:02:45,000
such a fascinating and again uh I I

3147
02:02:50,030 --> 02:02:47,400
don't know if we'll ever if we'll ever

3148
02:02:52,010 --> 02:02:50,040
find out I don't know I don't know you

3149
02:02:54,649 --> 02:02:52,020
know the only thing that I mean this is

3150
02:02:56,990 --> 02:02:54,659
just this is reality with this case

3151
02:02:59,270 --> 02:02:57,000
um the only way we'll get close is Tina

3152
02:03:01,550 --> 02:02:59,280
mukla's memory it's the only way we're

3153
02:03:03,229 --> 02:03:01,560
gonna get close uh people can say well

3154
02:03:05,209 --> 02:03:03,239
she doesn't remember she went and joined

3155
02:03:07,129 --> 02:03:05,219
the convent because she was traumatized

3156
02:03:09,470 --> 02:03:07,139
of course she's making a movie now about

3157
02:03:11,089 --> 02:03:09,480
her experience as being the prime

3158
02:03:13,790 --> 02:03:11,099
witness of the Cooper case it's called

3159
02:03:15,589 --> 02:03:13,800
not if you understand uh I could tell

3160
02:03:18,709 --> 02:03:15,599
you she listened to a podcast about Ted

3161
02:03:21,589 --> 02:03:18,719
Braden uh and was it highly intrigued by

3162
02:03:23,149 --> 02:03:21,599
it I can tell you that for a fact and uh

3163
02:03:25,370 --> 02:03:23,159
pretty sure she probably went and looked

3164
02:03:27,470 --> 02:03:25,380
at photographs of them and told people

3165
02:03:30,050 --> 02:03:27,480
about Ted Braden that she was closely

3166
02:03:32,450 --> 02:03:30,060
associated with you heard it here folks

3167
02:03:34,729 --> 02:03:32,460
that's the truth Tina McLeod knows who

3168
02:03:37,370 --> 02:03:34,739
Braden is and uh told people about him

3169
02:03:38,689 --> 02:03:37,380
that's all I can say so maybe she comes

3170
02:03:40,310 --> 02:03:38,699
out with something in the future I don't

3171
02:03:41,689 --> 02:03:40,320
know but that's all we got here is

3172
02:03:44,390 --> 02:03:41,699
Tina's memory

3173
02:03:47,270 --> 02:03:44,400
okay one last question and thank you for

3174
02:03:51,129 --> 02:03:47,280
hanging on for a few extra minutes

3175
02:03:55,189 --> 02:03:51,139
um I'm gonna answer the question first

3176
02:03:56,689 --> 02:03:55,199
and my answer is yes they do okay that's

3177
02:03:59,930 --> 02:03:56,699
my answer

3178
02:04:02,709 --> 02:03:59,940
do you believe the FBI knows who D.B

3179
02:04:06,169 --> 02:04:02,719
Cooper is the high Up's absolutely 100

3180
02:04:07,970 --> 02:04:06,179
yeah me too I think Hoover knew I and

3181
02:04:10,129 --> 02:04:07,980
and and that's why I think it's Braden

3182
02:04:11,450 --> 02:04:10,139
it's not a Robert rackstraw that they

3183
02:04:13,910 --> 02:04:11,460
threw out of the army for lying this is

3184
02:04:16,310 --> 02:04:13,920
Braden because he knew not only what

3185
02:04:18,169 --> 02:04:16,320
they were doing in Laos and illegal

3186
02:04:19,970 --> 02:04:18,179
activities over in Vietnam because you

3187
02:04:22,250 --> 02:04:19,980
know Brayton had so many ties to the CIA

3188
02:04:24,910 --> 02:04:22,260
that could be proven uh obviously

3189
02:04:26,750 --> 02:04:24,920
fighting in the Congo and everything

3190
02:04:28,129 --> 02:04:26,760
he knew what they were doing globally

3191
02:04:29,870 --> 02:04:28,139
and not just because he had friends in

3192
02:04:33,290 --> 02:04:29,880
eye places like John singlaub who

3193
02:04:35,149 --> 02:04:33,300
ordered a lot of assassinations uh they

3194
02:04:37,669 --> 02:04:35,159
they uh

3195
02:04:40,310 --> 02:04:37,679
they feared what he knew so why wouldn't

3196
02:04:41,930 --> 02:04:40,320
they just kill him dead man switch maybe

3197
02:04:42,890 --> 02:04:41,940
single Ops protecting him maybe they're

3198
02:04:44,570 --> 02:04:42,900
afraid Something's Gonna be put in the

3199
02:04:47,270 --> 02:04:44,580
mail I don't know I think they feared

3200
02:04:52,930 --> 02:04:47,280
what he knew and he knew a lot you know

3201
02:04:58,669 --> 02:04:56,050
which was run by the CIA

3202
02:05:01,970 --> 02:04:58,679
all of that and and here's the other

3203
02:05:05,149 --> 02:05:01,980
part you don't jump out of the back of a

3204
02:05:08,510 --> 02:05:05,159
727 uh with the parachute that was just

3205
02:05:10,790 --> 02:05:08,520
delivered to you with no fear unless you

3206
02:05:12,109 --> 02:05:10,800
knew exactly what you were doing you're

3207
02:05:14,750 --> 02:05:12,119
just not going to do that you're not

3208
02:05:16,910 --> 02:05:14,760
you're you you're it's

3209
02:05:20,089 --> 02:05:16,920
just doesn't make any sense unless

3210
02:05:21,950 --> 02:05:20,099
you're somebody like Ted Braden and uh

3211
02:05:23,149 --> 02:05:21,960
the only educate the jump would have

3212
02:05:24,890 --> 02:05:23,159
been a cakewalk

3213
02:05:26,689 --> 02:05:24,900
it's a cakewalk for him he could have

3214
02:05:28,430 --> 02:05:26,699
done that jump blindfolded I mean it

3215
02:05:29,570 --> 02:05:28,440
hung upside down he was that good of a

3216
02:05:31,250 --> 02:05:29,580
parachute

3217
02:05:33,050 --> 02:05:31,260
you know and I think he did a Halo I

3218
02:05:35,930 --> 02:05:33,060
think he Haled out of there

3219
02:05:37,970 --> 02:05:35,940
did did his uh didn't his third wife

3220
02:05:40,010 --> 02:05:37,980
again I can have there's so many

3221
02:05:42,770 --> 02:05:40,020
suspects in this case I've seen so many

3222
02:05:46,490 --> 02:05:42,780
interviews didn't she come forward and

3223
02:05:49,910 --> 02:05:46,500
say that he told me he was D.B Cooper

3224
02:05:51,589 --> 02:05:49,920
his his third wife said that she fully

3225
02:05:53,810 --> 02:05:51,599
believed it he was and I think she did

3226
02:05:57,350 --> 02:05:53,820
say that he told her that

3227
02:05:58,970 --> 02:05:57,360
um his stepdaughter told me that uh

3228
02:06:01,970 --> 02:05:58,980
which doesn't speak a lot about this at

3229
02:06:04,250 --> 02:06:01,980
all but his his entire family

3230
02:06:08,270 --> 02:06:04,260
um believed that he's Cooper and this is

3231
02:06:10,129 --> 02:06:08,280
where he's separated person to believe

3232
02:06:11,570 --> 02:06:10,139
their guy was Cooper that knew him I

3233
02:06:13,550 --> 02:06:11,580
know at least personally eight people

3234
02:06:16,390 --> 02:06:13,560
that believe Ted bright the new Ted

3235
02:06:18,950 --> 02:06:16,400
Braden personally that believes

3236
02:06:20,870 --> 02:06:18,960
right right

3237
02:06:23,570 --> 02:06:20,880
the guys that serve with him in Vietnam

3238
02:06:25,310 --> 02:06:23,580
are convinced it's him I'm exactly song

3239
02:06:26,930 --> 02:06:25,320
these guys were the I mean they were

3240
02:06:29,570 --> 02:06:26,940
jumping out of helicopters Billy wall

3241
02:06:33,350 --> 02:06:29,580
who recently passed away at the age of

3242
02:06:34,669 --> 02:06:33,360
93 28 years with the CIA 28 years took

3243
02:06:38,689 --> 02:06:34,679
the first surveillance photos of Osama

3244
02:06:41,510 --> 02:06:38,699
bin Laden uh 25 years U.S Special

3245
02:06:44,629 --> 02:06:41,520
forces top such forces LED

3246
02:06:48,649 --> 02:06:46,430
um I I hate to break this to you drew

3247
02:06:51,070 --> 02:06:48,659
but uh told me

3248
02:06:56,089 --> 02:06:51,080
okay

3249
02:06:58,910 --> 02:06:56,099
your internet has just failed but

3250
02:07:01,189 --> 02:06:58,920
but at least we made it uh this far are

3251
02:07:04,669 --> 02:07:01,199
you back can you hear me

3252
02:07:08,209 --> 02:07:04,679
okay yeah government

3253
02:07:11,750 --> 02:07:08,219
just let me say thank you so much and uh

3254
02:07:14,450 --> 02:07:11,760
drew beesonbooks.com the link is below

3255
02:07:16,390 --> 02:07:14,460
everybody go and check out Drew's work

3256
02:07:19,010 --> 02:07:16,400
it's amazing it's Drew

3257
02:07:21,709 --> 02:07:19,020
beesonbooks.com we have the links not

3258
02:07:24,050 --> 02:07:21,719
only below but over on the website and

3259
02:07:26,030 --> 02:07:24,060
throughout social media Drew thank you

3260
02:07:27,950 --> 02:07:26,040
so much and I look forward to having you

3261
02:07:29,030 --> 02:07:27,960
on the show again very soon thank you so

3262
02:07:31,310 --> 02:07:29,040
much

3263
02:07:33,609 --> 02:07:31,320
thanks Jimmy appreciate it

3264
02:07:36,770 --> 02:07:33,619
thank you so much perfect show tonight

3265
02:07:39,709 --> 02:07:36,780
and uh being able to run into overtime

3266
02:07:42,669 --> 02:07:39,719
uh with Drew Drew thank you so much this

3267
02:07:45,890 --> 02:07:42,679
is Fade to Black it is Drew

3268
02:07:49,669 --> 02:07:45,900
beesonbooks.com and uh let me remind

3269
02:07:53,209 --> 02:07:49,679
everybody tomorrow night on the show I

3270
02:07:54,410 --> 02:07:53,219
have uh Terry tobando is on with this

3271
02:07:58,669 --> 02:07:54,420
tomorrow night we're gonna do a little

3272
02:08:02,930 --> 02:07:58,679
ce5 talk and he's got a six seven volume

3273
02:08:05,209 --> 02:08:02,940
book uh set out now on ufology uh we'll

3274
02:08:07,490 --> 02:08:05,219
be talking about all of that tomorrow

3275
02:08:09,229 --> 02:08:07,500
night all right so get ready for that

3276
02:08:11,510 --> 02:08:09,239
that is tomorrow

3277
02:08:15,109 --> 02:08:11,520
and uh wow what a great conversation

3278
02:08:18,350 --> 02:08:15,119
tonight Zodiac Killer and DB Cooper man

3279
02:08:20,390 --> 02:08:18,360
the Yuba County five perfect show thank

3280
02:08:22,310 --> 02:08:20,400
you drew Beason Fade to Black is

3281
02:08:24,169 --> 02:08:22,320
produced by him Jay Palm Renee Newman

3282
02:08:26,750 --> 02:08:24,179
and Michelle fried thank you to Dennis

3283
02:08:29,830 --> 02:08:26,760
and Kevin webmaster is Drew the geek

3284
02:08:31,850 --> 02:08:29,840
music Doug Aldrich intro space boy

3285
02:08:33,890 --> 02:08:31,860
spaceboymusic.com Fade to Black is

3286
02:08:36,350 --> 02:08:33,900
produced by kjcr for the game changer

3287
02:08:39,050 --> 02:08:36,360
Network and this broadcast is owned and

3288
02:08:41,209 --> 02:08:39,060
copyrighted 2023 by Fade to Black and

3289
02:08:43,189 --> 02:08:41,219
The Game Changer Network Inc it cannot

3290
02:08:44,570 --> 02:08:43,199
be rebroadcast downloaded copy they're

3291
02:08:46,550 --> 02:08:44,580
used anywhere in the known universe

3292
02:08:47,870 --> 02:08:46,560
without written permission for fade the

3293
02:08:50,209 --> 02:08:47,880
black of the game changer Network I'm

3294
02:08:52,669 --> 02:08:50,219
your chimney church until tomorrow night

3295
02:08:53,689 --> 02:08:52,679
with Terry tomato I want everybody to be

3296
02:08:57,450 --> 02:08:53,699
safe